Welcome!

Welcome to PetForums, the UK's most popular and friendly pet owners community. Please 'Sign Up' if you'd like to take part and contribute to our forum.

Sign Up

Necessary health tests before breeding

Discussion in 'Dog Breeding' started by tashi, Jul 7, 2008.


  1. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2009
    Messages:
    19,284
    Likes Received:
    3,626
    Please see post #68 for the most-comprehensive list i know of, for all breeds' specific worries;

    German Shepherd:
    10, 21, 27, 36, 38, 42, 43a, 44, 54, 55, 59, 65, 72, 72b, 75, 79a, 81, 83, 86, 89, 94a, 95,
    102, 103, 105, 109, 112, 114, 121, 122, 129a, 130, 221a, 131, 137, 140, 143a, 147, 148,
    149c, 152, 166, 168, 171a, 180, 186, 190a, 191, 192, 193a, 194, 202b, 208, 214a, 218a,
    220, 221, 221a, 225, 226, 229, 230, 231, 236, 238, 241, 243, 247, 250, 250b, 256, 258a,
    266, 270, 273a, 276, 283, 299b, 300, 306, 312, 316, 320, 327a, 330


    Each of those numbers represents a very-specific health condition, known to affect GSDs.
    i'd say hip-rads, heart ultrasounds, & hemophilia wouldn't even be a down-payment on the
    screens which Should Be Done, before breeding any GSD of either sex.

    i'd also strongly suggest that both the prospective sire AND dam be at least 2-YO before mating
    for the first time, as 85% of problems that will affect an individual dog will show symptoms by 24-mos,
    [per Padgett's text], plus waiting till the parents are 2-YO to breed adds an average of 2 years
    to the lifespan of their progeny - it's the simplest way known to increase lifespan. :thumbsup:
     
  2. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2009
    Messages:
    19,284
    Likes Received:
    3,626
    Please see post #68 for the most-comprehensive list i know of, for all breeds' specific worries;
    some of these will not have tests, but the near relatives must be free of the condition:

    English Cocker Spaniel:
    42, 70, 88, 94, 103, 119, 135, 146, 147, 149b, 150, 166, 177, 186, 214, 221,
    221a, 226, 236, 245, 256, 259, 270, 304, 330


    Each number represents a very-specific health condition, known to affect Engl Cockers.

    As above:
    i'd also strongly suggest that both the prospective sire AND dam be at least 2-YO before mating
    for the first time, as 85% of problems that will affect an individual dog will show symptoms by 24-mos,
    [per Padgett's text], plus waiting till the parents are 2-YO to breed adds an average of 2 years
    to the lifespan of their progeny - it's the simplest way known to increase lifespan.
     
  3. Wildmoor

    Wildmoor PetForums Senior

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2011
    Messages:
    657
    Likes Received:
    9
    Different lines are genetically different and therefore carry different genetic problems in the UK Elbows and Shoulders are more of a problem than heart, it tends to be ones from poor breeding with heart murmers and other heart problems what may be correct for the USA doesnt necessarily mean it is correct for the rest of the world - I wouldnt touch unless sire/dam & grsire/grdam have clear elbows, A lot of conditions are sometimes not known until at least 5 years of age or later conditions such as DM, Epilepsy can be anything from 6mths to 5years.
     
  4. BessieDog

    BessieDog PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    May 16, 2012
    Messages:
    7,176
    Likes Received:
    393
    Irish Setters should also be tested for:

    PRA rcd1
    PRA rcd4
    and hip scored as well as CLAD

    Then we get into clears and carriers which is a whole other discussion.
     
  5. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2009
    Messages:
    19,284
    Likes Received:
    3,626

    This is not "USA" - it's Any GSD around the world, as all of them ultimately
    descend from Germany in the late 1920s, developed from landrace herders.

    AVAR was founded by a group of veterinarians, among them Jean Dodds;
    feel free to cross-check her professional references. For the intro & 1st segment
    that i copied, see my original single-post here, #68 in the thread:
    http://www.petforums.co.uk/1061204822-post68.html

    If U would like further info on the health conditions ALL GSDs are prone to, see the book,
    'Control of Canine Genetic Diseases ' by George A. Padgett, DVM, geneticist

    Amazon.com: Control of Canine Genetic Diseases (Howell Reference Books) (0021898050045): George A. Padgett: Books
    Use the "search" box to Look Inside & read about GSDs -

    Or for Ur convenience, here's a PHOTO of heritable conditions listed on pg 204, Appendix I:

    Picture 455.jpg
    As U can clearly see, it's a bit more than elbows. If i've counted correctly,
    it's 139 heritable issues, each represented by a number; to see what the number means,
    see Appendix II - they're listed numerically under the system affected [skeletal, GI, etc].
    Please note that i quoted Padgett's figure, taken from retrospective research of affected dogs,
    which states that 85% of affected dogs will show symptoms by 2-YO.
    Clearly that means that approx 15% of affected dogs will show no symptoms at 2-YO,
    & will develop them later.
    :001_smile: U're welcome.
     
  6. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2009
    Messages:
    19,284
    Likes Received:
    3,626
    Padgett's list of heritable conditions, pg 206 of Appendix I:
    Picture 456.png
    conditions are listed by number, in Appendix-II [beginning on p. 250].


    From AVAR's Guide to Heritable & Congenital Disorders in Dogs:
    Beginning with this post, #70 of the thread
    http://www.petforums.co.uk/1061204833-post70.html
    U can see what problem each number indicates.

    As above:
    i'd also strongly suggest that both the prospective sire AND dam be at least 2-YO before mating
    for the first time, as 85% of problems that will affect an individual dog will show symptoms by 24-mos,
    [per Padgett's text], plus waiting till the parents are 2-YO to breed adds an average of 2 years
    to the lifespan of their progeny - it's the simplest way known to increase lifespan.
     
  7. saimgee123

    saimgee123 PetForums Newbie

    Joined:
    May 18, 2013
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think hips, elbows scoring, and DM make sense and these tests are necessary before breeding. I think other diseases tests are also important and a breeder should kept in mind. I have a German Shepherd puppy and i was clear all health test before its breeding. see here German shepherd puppies for adoption
     
  8. Wildmoor

    Wildmoor PetForums Senior

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2011
    Messages:
    657
    Likes Received:
    9
    they may have all originally decended from the same stock but there are genetic differences even within the same country, it is proven that pure European Work Lines are genetically different than European Show lines, again the references you quote are US the book was published in 1998 - a lot more is known about the GSD and genetics traits and conditions now in particular the research completed at various European Universities, I dont need to read your links re the GSD I keep up to date with relevant research from the Universities concerned in the development of new tests and what I stated earlier still holds true, elbows are more a priority in work & showline, heart problems are more relevant to AKC stock and certain pet lines
     
  9. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2009
    Messages:
    19,284
    Likes Received:
    3,626
    yes, dear. :yesnod:


    heritable conditions in the GSD, per AVAR's list:
    and a partridge in a pear-tree... Singing:
     
  10. Wildmoor

    Wildmoor PetForums Senior

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2011
    Messages:
    657
    Likes Received:
    9
    EPI - age off onset before the age of 4 years
    Epilepsy age of onset - 6months to 5 years
    DM - 5-14 years , average 8 years
    Dilated Cardiomyopathy 2- 5 years
    Heamangio 7-10 years
    Pannus - 6years plus
    AF although young dogs can get from about 10 month the average age of onset is 5 years
    Bloat in GSDs -typical age is 5-7 years
    Atopic Dermititis from 6months to 3 years
    SLE although it as been seen in dogs as young as 4 month average age of onset is 6 years

    since his book was published there is much more knowledge I could go on with the list but is will probably be lost on you the above conditions are inherited in the GSD and are the most prevalent apart from HD & ED
     
  11. Wildmoor

    Wildmoor PetForums Senior

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2011
    Messages:
    657
    Likes Received:
    9
    I would keep your sarcasm to yourself and stick to your own breed if you have any knowledge of that!
     
  12. Bonzo

    Bonzo Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2013
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello Tashi,
    I am new to the idea of breeding my male dog and am trying to get the facts... so thanks for a very interesting forum.

    My basic question in this thread is to clarify what you mean by "deemed necessary". Is that by the law? I obviously do not want to break the law... so want to clarify what the legal obligations are, testing the health of the dog, getting a breeder's license (even if you are doing it a few times with one dog) and what if you are accepting money for doing it, does that change the legality of the process?

    Thank you kindly,
    Mark (on behalf of Bonzo, who REALLY wants to know)
     
  13. BessieDog

    BessieDog PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    May 16, 2012
    Messages:
    7,176
    Likes Received:
    393
    Health testing is necessary to prevent passing on inheritable problems in the breed. Some breeds are prone to some things, some to others. You need to research your breed (a breed club is a good start) to find what the recommended tests are.

    It is not a legal requirement, but a moral one. For example, my breed is testing for inheritable blindness problems - who'd want to breed pups who are likely to become blind due to the genes passed down from their parents? Many large breeds need to have their hips tested to help prevent the pups suffering from hip dysplasia in the future.

    Before you consider breeding from your dog please ask yourself, why? It is unlikely that many bitch owners would want to breed with an unknown dog - has he been shown and has he done well? A stud dog needs to be a good example of the breed as well as having the recommended health tests done and have good results.

    Breeding from your dog may very well change his character - once he has serviced a bitch that may well become all that's on his mind in the future.

    I see that you have commented on the poem about irresponsible breeding. Unless you have an exceptional dog that matches the breed standard and has a great temperament then any pups he sires may well end up without homes and in a rescue. Responsible breeding is not something to be undertaken lightly, and only the very best dogs should be bred from.
     
  14. Bonzo

    Bonzo Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2013
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi Bessie,

    I'm relieved to hear that. I understand your viewpoint, and it comes, it seems, from someone who takes the genetic development of a dog's physical condition seriously. That does have a place, but on the other hand, the best dog's I have owned, other than this gorgeous specimen I now own, have been randomly created mongrels.

    I place the character of the dog WAY above it's eyeball size or whether it's grand uncle had hip issues. I say this purely because Bonzo was the runt of his litter, and is the only dog I have ever come across who has zero aggression, zero terratorialism, and will befriend every and anyone. His sweet nature would out-weigh any physical defect he or his offspring could have, and for that reason I would breed him, just to have a piece of Bonzo that is kept alive.

    He is a registered pedigree, but (with respect to those who do care a lot abou t this aspect of dog breeding) for me that is besides the point.

    On another topic, I couldnt find where one would advertise him as a stud on the site, is there a dedicated "stud gallery"?

    Kind regards,
    Mark
     
  15. Sleeping_Lion

    Sleeping_Lion Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2009
    Messages:
    21,576
    Likes Received:
    660
    No, there is no *stud gallery* or pups allowed for sale on this forum.

    As regards your dog, we all own the best dogs in the world. If we all bred from every single dog, then it would be even more of a dire situation with rescue. How would you feel if your boy didn't produce exceptionally wonderful pups, but that it turned out he had the potential to produce completely different character pups? You're not mixing together two sets of genes to create the best of something when you breed, you're experimenting with generations of genetics, and that's why you look at what's behind your dogs, what's behind them, etc, etc, and use all that knowledge AND health tests to possibly breed, if you believe you have done everything possible to produce pups that will have a happy, healthy life. Or you can simply bung two dogs together and hope for the best like the vast majority of breeders, rescues are full of the fall out from that sort of litter.

    If I were you, given your experience, I'd keep your boy's genes to himself and do a lot of research before you make any firm decisions.
     
  16. tashi

    tashi PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2007
    Messages:
    16,655
    Likes Received:
    491
    We don't allow it on here, so no stud gallery I am afraid. But health tests are really important, what breed is he?
     
  17. rocco33

    rocco33 PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2009
    Messages:
    5,441
    Likes Received:
    761
    So you are happy to risk producing puppies with health problems?

    Good temperament may outweigh health problems for you, but it won't for puppy buyers who may end up paying thousands in vet treatment, not to mention watching their beloved pet suffer.

    If he is the only dog you have come across that has zero aggression, I wonder what dogs you are mixing with? Besides, all dogs are capable of aggression, but that information would take a long post and take this thread off topic to answer.
     
  18. Bonzo

    Bonzo Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2013
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Luckily for me that is not the case, and your opinion is safe with you... as is mine.

    Cheers
    Mark.
     
    #118 Bonzo, Oct 7, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2013
  19. Sleeping_Lion

    Sleeping_Lion Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2009
    Messages:
    21,576
    Likes Received:
    660
    You are entirely welcome to your opinion, we all have them, but given that you have to ask about health tests, and obviously weren't aware of them, or the complexity surrounding breeding, then I really doubt you have much, if any experience. I could be entirely wrong, but nothing you've posted convinces me otherwise I'm afraid.

    What breed is your dog?
     
  20. Bonzo

    Bonzo Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2013
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    wow, your arrogance is staggering.

    there is huge complexity in making tea, or there can be if you choose that to be your field of expertise. If you could ask a dog how complex breeding is, they would laugh at the notion of it being complex... it is people who make it "complex".

    from my perspective, equally valid but different from a "serious" dog breeder, two great dogs who can be bred, should be bred. I'd much rather see a lot of interesting mongrels than the same old carbon copy, pedigreed dogs.

    over and out (and unsubscribed from this tiresome conversation)
    Mark.
     
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice