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Meeting the demand for puppies

Discussion in 'Dog Breeding' started by Fleur, Apr 2, 2011.


  1. Fleur

    Fleur Vassal to Lilly and Ludo

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    I'm not a breeder and will never be a breeder ;)

    But a few threads recently have got me thinking - dangerous I know :p

    The KC registered approx 250K puppies last year - I assume that un registered at least matches this, maybe even 2 or 3 times - meaning my guess is anything from 500K to 1 million puppies born in a year :eek:

    So there is obvioulsy a huge demand for puppies in this country - or no one would be breeding (BYB, Puppy Farmers etc only breed to make money so wouldn't bother if the demand wasn't there)

    My qustion is this:
    If resposible breeders only breed when they want to keep a pup then surely this pushes puppy buyers to the BYB's puppyfarmers to find their new puppy?
    So should responsible breeders breed more? And if they do this does it stop them being responsible?

    Sorry for the ramble - I hope I make sense to at least a few of you :eek:
     
  2. Sleeping_Lion

    Sleeping_Lion Banned

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    This has been alluded to by a few members in the past, myself included, in that there simply aren't enough good breeders to meet the demand for puppies, but then should there be? If a breeder turns someone down because they can't give the right home for their pup, that person can just go to the puppy farmer down the road who doesn't care where their pups end up, so it's not just a case of volume bred, but other factors as well. People get puppies for all sorts of reasons without really thinking it through, that's the sort of lifestyle we have today, everything is disposable, if we can't cope with the pup two months, a year down the line, then it can be handed in to rescue, with a heavy heart of course. There's an oldie up for rehoming at the moment with the oldies club, whose owners replaced him just before Christmas with a new puppy; I doubt that pup came from a responsible breeder.

    It all goes back to educating the people buying animals, but unfortunately, even if you gave every person choosing to buy a puppy the information, some would still choose to support the wrong sort of breeder, simply for economic or fashionable reasons. People want to be able to buy a puppy at their convenience, and often aren't willing to wait for the right litter to come along, or are drawn by the sometimes cheaper prices puppy farmers can offer. Even when you tell them why the price is so low, or why they're breeding that particular breed that's suddenly in demand, some people are willing to turn a blind eye.
     
  3. Amethyst

    Amethyst PetForums VIP

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    To be honest I think a fair proportion of puppy buyers would not meet the criteria of a responsible and ethical breeder and so would be quite rightly turned down anyway.

    I also think many people want a puppy NOW and want a pup they can choose on-line ... rather like Argos ... and so would not want to ring Breed Clubs and breeders to chat and ask question .... and many I very much doubt would want to be quizzed they way I have been by a breeder (well done breeder, showed you cared!)

    Neither do I think many "want it now" buyers would be willing to wait any more than a couple of days to pick up their pup :rolleyes:

    So, no I don't think the good breeders are driving the numpties into the arms of puppy farmers etc.

    Sadly, I can't help but feel some buyers prefer the dodgy way of buying ... until pup sickens and/or dies ... Then the weeping and wailing starts, somewhat too late.
     
  4. Fleur

    Fleur Vassal to Lilly and Ludo

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    Thx for taking the time to answer.
    I know I was looking at it from a rather simplistic point of view - and that there are a lot of other factors to consider.
    Some people like you say really shouldn't be dog owners and there is little that can be done to stop them.

    Although I do wonder if there were more puppies from good breeders if less people would go the other route?
     
  5. Bijou

    Bijou PetForums VIP

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    Interestingly I had Bill Lambert from the Kennel Club visit recently to do my Accredited Breeders check and he said exactly this ! - the KC get thousands of requests for pedigree pups and good breeders do not breed in the volume needed to meet the demand - it's fairly easy to realise why if you think about it though - most good breeders own just a handful of high quality bitches who live in their house as family - at the most they'll take 3 litters from their bitches in their lifetime and space the litters 2 years apart - they always undertake to take back any dog or pup they've bred - they do loads of socialising with the pups they breed and lavish lots of time and care on them - they are very choosy about where their pups go - and they generally breed because they want a new pup with which to continue their hobby - speaking personally I just could NOT breed more often than I do and still keep the same high standards or have time to carry on showing and working my dogs !.


    I guess if puppy buyers were prepared to wait a little longer it might be no bad thing but in the popular breeds there will always be an alternative 'less good' breeder to fill the gap - in rarer breeds people already go down the route of putting their names down well ahead and waiting ...should all puppy buyers have to do this ? - it would certainly provide a cooling off period and stop some of the impulse buying that goes on.
     
  6. Fleur

    Fleur Vassal to Lilly and Ludo

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    Does anyone think it's possible that the reputation of breeding/showing puts off the 1st time puppy buyer leaving them feeling to intimidated to contact breed clubs and breeders.

    Just like to say I agree all breeders should be very interested in any prospective owners as the puppies are their responisbility.
     
  7. Amethyst

    Amethyst PetForums VIP

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    I can understand why you thought along those lines :)

    In my mind, I think there are still quite a few pups available from the good breeders, but you have to do a bit of leg work to find them, or rather calling on telephone. It's likely you will have to wait at least a little time, but not always.

    If you want a pup from a certain line or one that MAY have show potential, you will have more of a wait I should think and of course much will depend on litter sizes :)
     
  8. Fleur

    Fleur Vassal to Lilly and Ludo

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    Rather than have good breeder breed more - should good breeders encourage the buyers of their pups, when approriate, to breed?
    Creating more responsible breeders therefore more well bred puppies?
     
  9. Amethyst

    Amethyst PetForums VIP

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    I shouldn't say so, didn't bother me, but then I'm not easily intimidated ;)

    To be honest, never thought about it. Even the top breeders NEED to find homes for the puppies they don't want and there will usually be some in the litter that are simply "pet quality" so it's in the breeders interests to speak to pet buyers too :)
     
  10. Sleeping_Lion

    Sleeping_Lion Banned

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    I'd also suggest a lot of people are put off show dogs because of the negative press about their overall health, and the same with working dogs, which are all hyper and uncontrollable. Puppy farmers and the like cash in on this misinformation, and often sell breeds and cross breeds with misleading health/temperament information.
     
  11. CheekoAndCo

    CheekoAndCo PetForums VIP

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    I don't think there will ever be an end to PF's and BYB as much as I would like there to be.

    Too many people want something now and won't wait. To them a dog is a dog, things like health testing, researcing the pedigree etc mean nothing because they don't see anything wrong with sticking 2 dogs together aslong as it prodces cute puppies. They think aslong as the vet says the dog is healthy then it's fine to breed without realising other problems that can affect a dog later in life.

    They probaly think researching properly is only for show people but don't realise the pet buyers like them are the ones that influance how/what people breed. If everyone only wanted from health tested parents, ethical breeding etc then that's probaly what the biggest % of breeders would breed because otherwise they would have no way of selling their pups. But people want something now not tomorrow so that's what the breeders are breeding for.

    Why should responsible breeders breed extra litters when they are already doing everything right. If they were to have another one or 2 a year then they could become unethical for having more litters and be supplying the 'I want it now' market.

    I think that is also alot of the problem with rescues. Like responsible breeders they want to know the owner, check they are suitable and so on but people don't want to wait. Why wait a week or 2 to get that poor dog sitting in the kennels when you could go out tonight and get a little puppy!

    If only we all learnt to be more paitent to get what we wanted!
     
  12. I get loads of people contacting me for pups. Around 80% of all emails/phone calls I get are people wanting a pup NOW. When I say I have none "now" and may not have any when I do breed they ask me for breeders who do have litters ready now.

    Its sad because we have always waited for our pups. I could not just say "I want one now" and go get it.:(

    I think thats why BYB's and PF are getting people still going to them because people are never patient and are selfish.
     
  13. Amethyst

    Amethyst PetForums VIP

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    Is that unrealistic though?
    Where are they getting your number email address from?

    If I rang what I considered a reputable breeder, simply looking for a pet quality pup and had no personal breed contacts, I would ask the same. Though to be honest, I'd call Breed Club first.

    I would think nothing of asking a good breeder if they personally knew
    of anyone with a current or upcoming litter :)
     
  14. This is the thing. I dont mind them asking for contacts of other breeders who may have a litter or maybe having a litter soon but I get asked things like.

    "Only give me the number of breeders who have litters ready now".

    or.
    "Do they have a litter now? If not dont bother".

    Which I find rude.

    I always give out the same breeders numbers because they have litters more frequently than I plan to and they health test. But what ever happened to the old I will wait until the litters born or will wait until the litter is 8 weeks old.

    Why do they have to be ready now?:glare:
     
  15. swarthy

    swarthy PetForums VIP

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    No - I don't think they should breed more, and this is why I have alluded to the fact on more than one occasion that whilst I struggle to understand why they do it, there IS a need for good pet breeders.

    I can't speak for other breeds, but the feeling is for Labs, there is at least half as many born again unregistered as registered, and so do buy unregistered dogs through misguided information and perceptions and stick with them through thick and thin.

    HOWEVER - as someone on this thread said - not everyone will be suitable for a puppy - I turn far more people away than I ever meet, and I have turned some away having met them.

    I know at least one turned up on the forums a few weeks later with a pup I am only assuming came from a more dubious source - struggling to cope even though she had Labs previously and owned Labs - I said NO for very good reasons - unfortunately, some of the less scrupulous just want to sell their pups :( I don't know how you deal with these while there is less reliable sources of puppies available :(

    There is no doubt that many puppy enquiries are simply unsuitable for pups - some of them have lifestyles which I feel are more suited to older / rescue dogs - but again, as said before many times,

    "you can lead a horse to water.............................." :(

    I am fussy where my puppies go, and many other breeders are as well - preferring to keep them (which some numpty claimed was all about money!!) rather than seeing them go to homes where I feel the risk is very high of it not working out, and the pup coming back to me as a deliquent a few months later, or worse still, ending up in rescue :(

    ==========================================

    1. In summary, no I don't feel that good breeders should breed more to feed the demand - if someone wants MY puppies, they will wait and if they don't want to wait (which in a breed such as Labs where someone simply wants a responsibly bred pet - I understand and respect this) , I will do everything in my power to pair them with a good breeder - again, the old adage above comes into play sometimes :(

    2. I feel there is a need for new blood in good responsible breeders, whether they work, show or just have pets - providing they go about it responsibly.

    3. I also agree that there is a percentage of puppy buyers who should never be sold a puppy :(

    How you address the two last points I don't know - point two is one reason I try my best to be patient with, and if I can help someone who is potentially 'just a pet breeder' providing they are prepared to put the time, effort and research in to do things right.

    How you address the PF and BYB breeder - easiest way is people stop buying from them - SIMPLES

    If people didn't buy from them, just maybe then, those breeders feel unsuitable for a pup, would go to rescue (where of course, ultimately there would be less dogs) - and the breeding world would quickly become a much easier and more pleasant place.
     
  16. Devil-Dogz

    Devil-Dogz PetForums VIP

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    I personally dont think responsible breeders should be breeding more no.. Thats when things start to turn away from the plans they have for their lines, and work on just supplying. Decent breeders dont just breed to keep they have aims for the litter, what the litter will produce how it can help the line over all ect.. NO decent breeder would want to breed from their quality dogs just to supply a market and not keep for themselves - they gain nothing from it.- all that hard work, yes they may make a profit - that means nothing to a responsible breeder!

    - I can only talk about what I have seen through working with our breed rescue, and small dog rescue...My personal opinion is that there are already far to many dogs out there that need homes (even young puppies!) without breeders adding to the problems more.. It doesnt matter how many litters a year a decent breeder has, the uneducated will always fall into the wrong types of breeders - because puppies are cheaper - easier to get hold of - less travelling - their not KC registered 'so healthier' - and a whole load of other reasons.

    To me a decent breeder is and always should remain selfish.. Breeding when they want and at no other point - they breed for themselves!

    - I wont state my opinions on pet breeders again, most know my feelings - and most disgaree ;) !!
     
    #16 Devil-Dogz, Apr 2, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2011
  17. Fleur

    Fleur Vassal to Lilly and Ludo

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    Thank you everyone for replying.

    and letting me randomly muse ;)

    I don't think responsible breeders should breed more - but I do think there possibly could be more responsible breeders.

    Types of places I looked for puppy buying advice were Dogs Trust, RSPCA it didn't occur to me to look at the KC web pages because I didn't want a show dog :eek: At the time the Dogs Trust didn't mention health tests, good to see now it's right at the top of their puppy buying guide along with KC papers etc :)
    http://www.dogstrust.org.uk/_resources/resources/factsheets09/factsheetgettingapuppy09.pdf
    So it looks like the message is getting out to puppy buyers on how to buy more responsibly.

    I admit before joining this forum I didn't know anyone with a KC reg dog - and thought KC reg was for showing only :eek:
    I'd never of expected a working dog or pet dog to be KC reg unless they didn't meet show standard :rolleyes:
    I also thought breed clubs were for show or working people not 'pet' people and dealt with breeding, welfare and rehoming.

    And although this forum has taught me so much - I didn't join a forum until after I had my dogs ;)
    I admit to researching breeds and their breed traits - I visited discovery dogs and read a ton of books from the libary I spoke to practically every dog walker I passed in the street - but I didn't research breeders.
    Everything I read seemed to emphasise making sure the type of dog suited my lifestyle and to make sure I was able to meet it's needs.
    But not alot seemed to be about breeders - just the make sure the dogs are clean, with mum and in a home enviroment etc

    I think in the last 3 years the info has greatly improved - just looking at the Dogs Trust info I think that's alot more comprehensive now :thumbup:

    Hopefully with the information now out there people can make more informed decisions when buying a new Puppy.
     
  18. swarthy

    swarthy PetForums VIP

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    I think it is quite encouraging the stance the Dogs Trust is making on advising people on buying puppies - they also run neutering schemes for pet owners.

    People do need to realise that even a moratorium on breeding would not stop the demand for puppies.

    There does need to be more responsible breeders - but there also has to (and I've no idea how) a way of stopping people who are turned away for genuine reasons for being able to simply go to a less scrupulous breeders.

    I guess the problem with that is each breeder will have their own set of rules, and they will all vary

    For example, some breeders won't sell to families with children under 5, others won't sell to people who work full time, however well thought out their plans may be - others won't sell to someone who expresses an interest in breeding - the list goes on

    When I have pup enquiries, I insist on meeting ALL the family - wild kids are, Im afraid a big no no for me - because they invariably result in delinquent fully grown pup (it can be bad enough for adult dogs :( ) - the other is flats - I wouldn't sell to anyone living in anything other than a ground floor flat with garden (such as the one my mum lives in).

    I am more than happy if someone is open on their interest in breeding - providing they are prepared to do everything by the book and as specified in the endorsement contract - and if there is any issue with them taking on board the endorsement contract - that would be another no-no for me - because if their intentions are good, they have no reason to worry.
     
  19. Burrowzig

    Burrowzig PetForums VIP

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    It didn't with me. I was thinking of getting a Kooirkehonje at one point so went to see them at discover dogs, then had a phone conversation with someone in the breed club (there were very few people breeding them at the time). It didn't put me off at all, it seemed they were the best people to give me the full info about what it was like to live with one of these dogs. I do think showing is a bit weird, not for me but they knew the dogs inside out. As a result of the research, I decided Kooirkers were not the right dog for me at the time, but one I could look at again when I had more experience. I still like them and maybe one day.....
     
  20. dexter

    dexter PetForums VIP

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    you are very lucky , for someone who has never shown or bred a litter to get loads of enquries.. I used to get calls but with the recession they are few and far between. We are lucky in our breed because if we get an enquiry and have no pups we'll put them on to someone who does have pups.
     
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