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Maybe Max IS aggressive

1K views 25 replies 17 participants last post by  LinznMilly 
#1 · (Edited)
Just took M&M out for a walk. All was going well until an offlead dog appeared with his owner behind, and as it got closer, I recognised it as one we'd met yesterday, who frankly made such a pest of himself that both me and Milly shooed him off (Max was much more interested in a scent on the grass), his owner telling me he was friendly - yes, but my onlead dog is clearly nervous, so will you PLEASE get your dog under control? :rolleyes:

Anyway, that was yesterday. Tonight, owner kept said the same thing about his dog being friendly. This time, my 2 were in a sit-stay. Then the dog got right into Max's face and wouldn't budge. Max put up with it for a few seconds, then chased him off in no uncertain terms, barking, but came back as soon as the other dog got the message and as I called him. No snarling, no lip curling, no growling, no pinning the other dog down, no screaming/yelping from the other dog that suggested Max had bitten/attacked him.

Owner then said "It's yours. It's your's that's vicious". :( To be fair, he couldn't see his dog get into Max's face, because I was between Max/the other guy's dog, and the owner.

He's the 2nd person recently to label Max as aggressive, but critically, he's also the 2nd person who hasn't seen what his own dog was doing prior to Max's reaction. Maybe I'm in denial and Max is aggressive, but my initial response was if the owner had have gotten into my face the way his dog got into Max's, I'd have belted him one, probably with the flexi leads - never mind chasing him and then going my own way.

Don't know if there's a point to this thread really. Just feeling down about the whole thing. I'm going to see if there's any local training sessions that I can take Max to, for socialisation and possibly for a trainer to give me a better idea as to whether Max needs to be onlead and muzzled. I'd get a behaviourist in, but atm I'm only getting SSP so can't afford it atm.
 
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#3 · (Edited)
From what you've said above it doesn't sound to me like your Max has any aggression issues at ALL... just that he was telling a very rude dog to bugger off out of it in the only way he knows how.

If you see them again I would tell the owner to get his dog under control and away from yours now and then your dog won't have to tell him in doggy language to 'piss off'.

There are none so blind as those who won't see :rolleyes:
 
#5 ·
Kilo chased a spaniel off growling at him the other week. The spaniel had run up, had a posture and stare and then barked in Kilo's face. I saw it as appropriate behaviour and he too left off when asked and didn't go back 'looking for trouble' so it didn't worry me. Thankfully the spaniel owner just apologised to me and said her boy could be 'iffy'.
 
#6 ·
Just sounds to me like Max telling a rude dog who's invaded his space to bugger off. I don't see that as aggressive. Okay so maybe he wouldn't be the ideal candidate for a dog park if he doesn't like other dogs getting in his face but I think that's a far cry from vicious.

I muzzled Rupert because if another dog approached him he would attack it with every intention of doing serious harm. Nor would he stop the attack until forcibly removed. I didn't muzzle Shadow who would put on big, noisy, toothy displays when other dogs forgot their manners but wouldn't actually harm them.
 
#7 ·
My lot do this quite alot around rude dogs with inattentive owners!:rolleyes: Its not the least bit aggressive, merely one dog telling another to **** off!
I certainly wouldnt listen to anything the 'its ok, he's friendly!' brigade have to say.;)
 
#8 ·
I agree with Bessie (again :rolleyes:) some people have a very uneducated view of what vicious is, I probably did to some degree before I started reading up about dog language. People think Ginge is aggressive, she certainly sounds it :eek: and she has snapped at a few dogs, and me :(, but I am pretty sure she isn't, my trainers don't think she is and most of the time if allowed to she just wants to play, (hope the behaviorist can confirm this next tuesday) she is just nervous and excited. I understand how you feel completely though it does get you down (and I get all indignant :mad: as well).

ETA I also agree with everyone else who managed to post in the time it took me :p
 
G
#9 ·
Your dog was not being aggressive. If he did that to mine then it would serve mine right for being rude. But then of course I would say sorry lots for him charging over and being a general pain in the arse!
 
#10 ·
No, doesn't sound aggressive at all to me, any more than I am aggressive if I tell someone in the street to stop shouting at me and leave me alone!

Dres is much the same. He is often harassed by other dogs who's owners don't see it as a problem when their dogs are annoying mine. Thankfully hes quite a submissive and tolerant dog with others of his own kind, but he has his limits.
He was being bombed by a dog at the park today, just wouldn't leave him alone, and as usual, the owner didn't care.
He tolerated it for a fairly long time before finally turning around and giving a serious bark, bark, bark.
And of course, the owner rolls his eyes at us :rolleyes:

Its frustrating that some people think any dog that doesn't put up with absolutely anything and everything, no matter how rude or scary, is 'aggressive'.
With me having the breed I do, too, its always my dog who is labelled as aggressive, when he's just trying to mind his own business and being constantly harassed by others.
Sadly, I have this problem more with small breeds and their owners than large dogs. Not all little dogs, but if its going to happen to Dres, its a small breed most of the time :(

I never let Dres bother other dogs who clearly don't want to be bothered.
If I had kids, I wouldn't let them approach and bother anyone they wanted to, either!
 
#11 ·
It doesn't sound to me like Max is aggressive. He's just telling the other dogs to bugger off. My Kite does the same. As long as there's no biting, snarling, pinning or acting without provocation, it's not proper aggression.

With Kite, I'm aware of what triggers her, and try to step in first and deal with the other dog myself. I don't want her reactions to escalate which I think could happen, as she's probably a bit over-confident and full of herself.
 
#12 ·
He tolerated it for a fairly long time before finally turning around and giving a serious bark, bark, bark.
And of course, the owner rolls his eyes at us :rolleyes:

With me having the breed I do, too, its always my dog who is labelled as aggressive, when he's just trying to mind his own business and being constantly harassed by others.
Interesting...I usually get the eye roll too!:rolleyes: I dont have an evil aggressive 'devil dog' though. Apparently mine are just too nervous coz they are handbag dogs and I never let them play (get chased and bulldozed) properly with other dogs coz Im a panicky Paris Hilton type!!:mad2:

Seems like ratdogs and devildogs are both misunderstood!LOL:D
 
#14 ·
Interesting...I usually get the eye roll too!:rolleyes: I dont have an evil aggressive 'devil dog' though. Apparently mine are just too nervous coz they are handbag dogs and I never let them play (get chased and bulldozed) properly with other dogs coz Im a panicky Paris Hilton type!!:mad2:

Seems like ratdogs and devildogs are both misunderstood!LOL:D
Yeah, I can understand that!
The other day, I was talking to another dog owner about how Dres isn't the kind of dog who plays much with others. He's more ball orientated, and if he does try to play with another, its always under close supervision, and after he's had time to get used to them.
As I said this, Dres spotted a dog in the distance, on lead, and began to trot toward it. I called him back, because I don't like him approaching on-lead dogs for obvious reasons.
And she says 'thats why he doesn't play; you don't let him!'

I then had to explain how I do let him play, just not with on-lead dogs, and not if he is going to approach them like a loony, with barking and bouncing.
Im happy for him to play, but respectfully, and in a way I'd want others to let their dog play with mine, not as a complete free for all!

I think some people think they should just be left to get on with it, there should be no rules, no boundaries, and all dogs should run free and play with whoever they choose. In an ideal world, yep. But sadly, its not an ideal world, and I not only don't want my dog getting in trouble, but I don't want him bothering anyone else who isn't interested either.
 
#15 ·
Thanks guys. I knew I'd get a straight answer from people who actually know dogs, as opposed to those who think they do - whether it was "yes, your dog has a problem" or, as it's turned out, "Your Max was just telling the other dog to bugger off".

This is why I recall him from other dogs as they pass, practicing sit-stay or, if necessary, clipping his lead back on. At least I do actively practice control over him, rather than allow him to just approach any dog he feels like and do nothing about it other than blather on about how friendly he is.

I'm annoyed that I let the owner get to me tonight tbh, because normally I don't listen to the "It's OK, s/he's friendly" brigade, but if Max did have a problem, I'd rather address it and take measures to protect other dogs than allow my aggressive dog to approach. Especially as Max has been on the receiving end of an attack by a "friendly" dog.

I have to wonder if they'd have the same consideration . . . Probably not. :(
 
#16 ·
I agree with the others... he's just saying go away, Tilly does this sometimes, especially with little persistent dogs who want to stick their head up her bottom.. she doesn't mind big dogs, she tries to move away & then they follow her & she tells them off, she has even pinned one or 3 down but never bitten or .anything, she's very social with other dogs,I got so worried I started putting her onlead if we saw a little dog... adding all my nervous tension down the lead actually made her worse & as if she wanted to have at go at them anyway (my fault) so I spoke to a behaviourist who told me clicker distraction from the dog that's annoying her & rewarding with a treat may be more effective than putting her back onlead & that's what I've been doing.
 
#17 · (Edited)
I agree with the others... he's just saying go away, Tilly does this sometimes, especially with little persistent dogs who want to stick their head up her bottom.. she doesn't mind big dogs, she tries to move away & then they follow her & she tells them off, she has even pinned one or 3 down but never bitten or .anything, she's very social with other dogs,I got so worried I started putting her onlead if we saw a little dog... adding all my nervous tension down the lead actually made her worse & as if she wanted to have at go at them anyway (my fault) so I spoke to a behaviourist who told me clicker distraction from the dog that's annoying her & rewarding with a treat may be more effective than putting her back onlead & that's what I've been doing.
Thanks for that Tillymint. :thumbup: Once money allows, I think I might get a behaviourist in, even if for no other reason than to to cover my own back and protect him. At least then, if/when others call him aggressive I can turn around and say something along the lines of "I've had him assessed by a canine behaviourist, who said he isn't, so it's not him with the problem" before walking off :D
 
#18 ·
Thanks for that Tillymint. :thumbup: Once money allows, I think I might get a behaviourist in, even if for no other reason than to to cover my own back and protect him. At least then, if/when others call him aggressive I can turn around and say something along the lines of "I've had him assessed by a canine behaviourist, who said he isn't, so it's not him with the problem" before walking off :D
I knew putting her back onlead was wrong as it was making it worse, just couldn't think what else to do... & it turned out really simple! Sometimes it's a case of going back to basics & treating/rewarding, but if it works its all good:D
 
#19 ·
Be thankful you dont live by me! Max would be branded a killer dog and a witch hunt would be started!

He doesnt sound aggressive to me. Dottie has been polite with dogs then theyve jumped on her head and then she tells them off, then shes The Devil with Dots and oh-so nasty blah blah blah heard it all before, do go shove it up your backside as Ive had enough!
 
#20 ·
Ach, people have labelled Jake aggressive because he dared to tell their rude dog off (who are usually either bouncing on his head, getting up in his face and not letting him past, and the biggest telling off ever was to one dog who tried to mount him)... I just ignore them now. I have learned that the majority of dog owners have no clue about dog behaviour and therefore cannot tell the difference between a dog telling another one to back off and one who is about to bite/attack another dog.

Jake has never bitten another dog (he has tried to when other dogs have attacked him, but that is to get the dog off and as soon as they are, he runs for the hills) but he is more than comfortable to tell an inappropriate dog off... yet, people still blame him :rolleyes: the noises he makes doesn't help, but I just ignore them all now. I couldn't care less anymore.
 
#21 ·
I have a dog who is aggressive to rude, in-your-face-ignoring the signals dogs. Max doesn't sound aggressive, he let the other dog know he wasn't welcome without going too far.
Don't kick yourself for questioning your judgement, to me it's a sign of someone who has the sense to realise they may have a biased view of the situation - as it turns out you didn't :)
 
#22 · (Edited)
Although you may believe Max had a good reason to see off this other dog, if he were my dog I wouldn't be very happy with him reacting this way. Many idiot owners let their dogs greet others without permission, and don't have proper control over their dogs to stop this from happening. Which means that dogs unfortunately need to deal with dogs approaching.

Charlie stays calm, and I see off the other dog. Even if it means circling Charlie whilst he's in a sit and stay, so the other dog can't get to him. Owners tend to quickly call their dog back when they see I'm not going to let them greet or play. We meet loads of dogs on their leads in a polite way - but I prefer owners to ask permission and I'll make a point of it whilst I'm out with Charlie.

But if Charlie were to growl or try to see them off, I'd tell him off. Even though I'd understand why he was doing it, and I'd know he wouldn't attack them or anything, it's not the reaction I want so I'd nip it in the bud.
 
#23 · (Edited)
Although you may believe Max had a good reason to see off this other dog, if he were my dog I wouldn't be very happy with him reacting this way. Many idiot owners let their dogs greet others without permission, and don't have proper control over their dogs to stop this from happening. Which means that dogs unfortunately need to deal with dogs approaching.

Charlie stays calm, and I see off the other dog. Even if it means circling Charlie whilst he's in a sit and stay, so the other dog can't get to him. Owners tend to quickly call their dog back when they see I'm not going to let them greet or play. We meet loads of dogs on their leads in a polite way - but I prefer owners to ask permission and I'll make a point of it whilst I'm out with Charlie.

But if Charlie were to growl or try to see them off, I'd tell him off. Even though I'd understand why he was doing it, and I'd know he wouldn't attack them or anything, it's not the reaction I want so I'd nip it in the bud.
Um . . . I see your point but having gone over the whole thread again, I can't find anything in my posts that suggests I was happy with the way Max handled it? :confused: In fact, it upset me that my dog has been labelled as aggressive and i felt the need to talk to people who actually know dogs, some of whom I'm well aware actually do have DA dogs, who'd tell me either way if Max had a problem, and not hold my hand saying it doesn't matter. All I said was if the owner had have done to me what his dog had done to my dog I'd have been a lot more aggressive because after all, the owner would be invading my personal space, and none of us like that.

Besides, I DO try to see other, rude dogs off without Max getting involved. Some I've had success with, others (like the dog in question here) not so much. He was pestering Milly on Wednesday. I'd tried to intervene, stepping between Milly and this dog, trying to shoo him off but in the end, he only gave up because I put Milly in a sit-stay and he couldn't get to her backside :rolleyes:

I'm happy for you that Charlie is so calm :thumbup: but unfortunately I don't have the same experience of owners recalling their dogs as you do (at least, not with the same apparent level of success :rolleyes: ). Most of them walk away calling their dog who's too busy making a nuisance of itself that I have to yell at the dog and frighten it - then it gets the message and buggers off. :rolleyes:
 
#24 ·
Don't beat yourself up about it, no it's not the ideal reaction but sometimes what can you do. This happened to Oscar the other day we were out minding our own business when we got hemmed in by three enthusiastic retrievers. They kept crowding us trying to say hello no owner in sight and so he chased them off, even then they kept coming back.

Now I don't like him doing this but I certainly didn't tell him off; I'd love to know how I am supposed to fend off 3 large enthusiastic dogs whilst holding onto my pup and Oscar when we were crowded into a corner. He also has a medical condition at the moment and so his temperament isn't quite what it was. Yes it's lovely to have a calm dog that allows you to do that but in mine and your case it obviously wasn't possible :)
 
#25 · (Edited)
Um . . . I see your point but having gone over the whole thread again, I can't find anything in my posts that suggests I was happy with the way Max handled it? :confused: In fact, it upset me that my dog has been labelled as aggressive and i felt the need to talk to people who actually know dogs, some of whom I'm well aware actually do have DA dogs, who'd tell me either way if Max had a problem, and not hold my hand saying it doesn't matter. All I said was if the owner had have done to me what his dog had done to my dog I'd have been a lot more aggressive because after all, the owner would be invading my personal space, and none of us like that.

Besides, I DO try to see other, rude dogs off without Max getting involved. Some I've had success with, others (like the dog in question here) not so much. He was pestering Milly on Wednesday. I'd tried to intervene, stepping between Milly and this dog, trying to shoo him off but in the end, he only gave up because I put Milly in a sit-stay and he couldn't get to her backside :rolleyes:

I'm happy for you that Charlie is so calm :thumbup: but unfortunately I don't have the same experience of owners recalling their dogs as you do (at least, not with the same apparent level of success :rolleyes: ). Most of them walk away calling their dog who's too busy making a nuisance of itself that I have to yell at the dog and frighten it - then it gets the message and buggers off. :rolleyes:
I wasn't trying to upset you or argue, or imply that you were happy with Max's behaviour....

Please don't try to read between the lines. I was just saying that if it were Charlie I wouldn't be happy with the reaction. I wasn't saying that you're happy with Max's reaction. I wouldn't be asking whether he's aggressive, but whether I want that reaction or not, and if no then I'd try to nip it in the bud.

I honestly wasn't trying to suggest anything bad about you, the way you feel about it, or the way you handle your dogs. I was just trying to add my perspective to the thread.

I was agreeing with you and the others that hes not aggressive but just not reacting well. but it obviously didn't come across well.
 
#26 · (Edited)
No worries Helbo :D You didn't upset me, just got me wondering if I'd said something to give you the impression I was happy with Max's behaviour. :thumbup:

It's not the first time he's behaved this way, but thankfully such incidences are rare and practicing a sit-stay with them does usually work (the first time in recently history he was branded aggressive he was onlead and a rude JRT not only got into his and Milly's faces, barking and snarling - it went underneath them both towards their back legs, :yikes: :( :incazzato: causing both my dogs to back off. Of course, other owner was half a street away, didn't see what had happened, and labelled my boy as aggressive :rolleyes:).

Anyway, this morning's walk was much better. The handful of dogs we did meet were better mannered, were either onlead, or kept their distance, so Max didn't need to tell any dog to go and play in the wee wee :D :p
 
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