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Mating and "proven" studs

Discussion in 'Dog Breeding' started by Emma chisset, May 4, 2021 at 9:33 AM.


  1. Emma chisset

    Emma chisset PetForums Newbie

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    Hi, I missed my bitch getting pregant first try and so was really anxious to get her mated this time.
    She has 11 months between heats.
    So i made the effort to find a proven stud whatever the cost and wherever in the country.
    He is a collie and my bitch is a greyhoundxdeerhoundxsaluki. Although maiden, she stands really well from day 10 right through to 19 (going by last time) and she has always been super "randy" even outside of heats (humping us sometimes!! ).
    I brought her a long way to a guy who really sold his stud and implied its a given if you get the right days (he suggested blood testing) - we tried day 12 but the stud just did lots of thrusting but no tie (didnt really seem to be hitting the target, so to speak and kept jumping off...same as the collie i tried last year).
    He suggested i blood test her as apparently dog knows if bitch is too early. Tested that day and two days later and readings were 6 and 11.4..so we tried 2 days later...her day 16 of heat. Again she was very reveptive..back shuddering and flagging when 20 yards away from stud. Again stud didn't penetrate, but this time some ejaculation outside of her, i saw it going everywhere!
    Now, she is a bit taller (and we tried to assist using a bank etc) but last year i mated my other bitch to a smaller stud and no problem..he really did seem very good and i think she was a little early even at day 12, but one mating produced 9 pups!
    We tried again next day but he just doesnt seem to find her vulva etc.
    Someone else told me its usually the studs problem with collies, but the owners are trying to put it down to my bitch. Saying maybe she's not "holding him" or she wriggles when he enters..but she's standing really well and seems to really like this dog.
    I feel he's been over sold to me and I'm wasting my time again. We've tried most days through her peak period and the stud really seems to be struggling to "stay engaged" or get it into her.
    Any advice really appreciated. I don't want to wait another year. Im so gutted i've spent all this time travelling a long way for an expensive stud who just doesnt seem able. They also say he's had no problem with bigger bitches before.
    Does anyone know if male collie studs are a problem on average??
    Many thanks for any advice in advance
     
  2. Linda Weasel

    Linda Weasel PetForums VIP

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    No help with the mating issue, but what is your thinking behind going to such extreme lengths to cross your sight hound bitch with a Collie??
     
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  3. Emma chisset

    Emma chisset PetForums Newbie

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    Not quite sure why this surprises you and cross breeding is a big topic.
    Ok, sighthounds or long dogs are crossed with pastoral dogs to create lurchers.
    Our original crosses were half collies and traditionally this was a very popular cross as it mixes the speed of the sight hound with the collie intelligence and easier trainability. It really depends what you want to be working/using them for but I.m.h.o I think the collie crosses make by far the best pets if you're not working your lurcher. This was the original cross and they were incredible dogs. Apparently the original sight hound cross was actually with a poodle..go figure!
    The bedlington/terrier crosses I'm not so keen on for pets but that's just my preference. I'm also trying to downsize as lurchers can be too big for many and the colliexwhippet or greyhoundxcollie does this, depending on exactly how big you want to go.
    My sighthound has much "Longdog" in her and an incredible prey drive (not so great for pet owners or if you're not a committed trainer) and this is fine for me but too much for some (I have her stock controlled and we'll trained now but took alot of work).
    I've wanted to breed for 30 years and only now have the time space and commitment to do it. My decision was to create the perfect pet companion and possibly keep one of the collie crosses at some point. But we all have breed preferences. Funny that now the "crosses" are becoming so popular (trendy?) when lurchers have been around for centuries!
    Why do you ask?
     
  4. Emma chisset

    Emma chisset PetForums Newbie

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    Oh..and may sound "extreme" but I'm learning that good, reliable studs are few and far between. And not everyone wants to out cross.
    As I've said..here I found one "bigged up" alot and relatively expensive but not working so far!
     
  5. Linda Weasel

    Linda Weasel PetForums VIP

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    It seemed to be two such diverse breeds. I guess at the end of the day they’re both predators.
     
  6. Emma chisset

    Emma chisset PetForums Newbie

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    Apologies but these comments seem somewhat naive and lacking any knowledge of dog breeding! X
     
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  7. Emma chisset

    Emma chisset PetForums Newbie

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  8. Siskin

    Siskin Look into my eyes....

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    Hmm. Sounds if you also lack some politeness. It was a simple question, no need to be rude
     
  9. Raleigh

    Raleigh PetForums Junior

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    That's a bit of an extreme response to an honest question! You have to admit, there are a lot of random crosses out there these days with no thought behind them whatsoever, so caution on a forum like this is only a natural response, and I'm not entirely sure I follow your logic even after your explanation. Forgive me for asking (unlike @Linda Weasel, I'm sure, I really am inexperienced), but how will crossing an incredibly intelligent breed like the collie, which needs constant stimulation and a high standard of training to prevent destructive behaviour, with a fast breed possessing a high prey drive like a sighthound, help you achieve "the perfect companion pet"? You say yourself that your bitch has "an incredible prey drive" and is "not so great for pet owners", so why do you think she in particular is a good choice to breed from for this goal? Fully admitting that I'm no expert, I'd predict fast, smart, and difficult to handle pups requiring owners prepared to devote a lot of time to training and giving them a "job" to do, rather than laidback companion pets.

    Again, I really do lack knowledge in dog breeding and ownership, although I was raised around family collies, including a collie x who was the sweetest dog I've ever known, so I'm definitely not saying you're wrong. I'm just honestly confused about your choice of breeds and bitch compared to your stated aim.
     
  10. BlueJay

    BlueJay Pack of Losers

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    What sort of research did you do on this stud?
    Did you try and track down any previous litters? Or health tests? Working ability?

    Are you intending to produce these pups mostly as just pets, or as working lurchers?
     
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  11. O2.0

    O2.0 PetForums VIP

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    I have the same question as @Raleigh
    On the one hand you say
    Which sounds like a highly intelligent, highly prey driven dog wouldn't be so easy for a pet home.
    But then you say
    which doesn't quite fit with your description above.
    Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing the mix, it just doesn't sound like a pet to me.
    To me it sounds like a fun dog, but I keep a silken frequently and I do like the 'biddable' sighthound temperament if you can put biddable and sighthound in the same sentence... :D Still not exactly an easy pet dog...

    I'd also say that now it perhaps not the best time to be breeding. Not responsibly at least.

    In any case, if you are still set on breeding, I would at least have a heart exam done on your bitch, I know it's not common in greyhounds, more so in deerhounds, but I'd have her heart evaluated at least.
    The BC stud should have hips and eyes at the bare minimum I would think. Maybe elbows? I'll leave that to the more experienced BC folks.
     
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  12. Emma chisset

    Emma chisset PetForums Newbie

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    Apologies
    I'm afraid I disagree with you..this is an extremely well known and sought after cross in the lurcher world and the question didn't seem like a question..but more of a criticism, but I could have read that wrong..perhaps just a lack of knowledge about these breeds and what their qualities (and pitfalls) can be.
    And calling collies predators just seems odd to me.
    I'm sorry you don't understand the answer but it's pretty tricky to go into all the detail on a forum thread. When I've been researching, studying and owning this breed / crosses for over 30 years.
    I think champdogs is possibly a better forum to use as there is a lot of knowledge and experience there, but I was struggling to get onto the site so thought I'd see if anyone on this forum understood about the mating complexities (another huge subject with much to learn and understand).
    As for your questions, I'm afraid you're picking up on one aspect and making alot of assumptions without knowing or understanding the breed. I'll try to explain what I can if it helps.
    So firstly, dog ownership is often far more about the owner than the breed, so you could in fact have most breeds or crosses as pets, given the correct input of training time etc. However, certain breeds do have certain traits their known for (and which people warm to or use....or not!)
    But, just because you get a collie, doesn't mean you automatically have a good sheep dog. Yes they're trained to round up sheep and go all day, but not all are necessarily great at it. Some may be neurotic, some calm and sweet nature like yours, but it's not a given..and training can help hugely get around any (potential) problems. But digs can be as individual as humans in the same family.
    I've had lurchers with high prey drive, and some with hardly any.
    The reason they make fantastic pets is actually their incredible calmness around the home, contrasted with their athletic prowess and joy to watch outdoors.
    Owners love watching their speed and jumping ability and they often are great with other dogs and people. Very friendly, very biddable, just easy to have around. They're silent (they don't tend to yap or be noisy guard dogs). They don't hassle people or other dogs (as a general rule) . However, as I said before, it's not a given, so occasionally some may be a bit guardy or different from the general rules.
    Just because my bitch has a high prey drive doesn't make her a bad pet.
    She's fantastically obedient and biddable..fully stock trained, and I even called her off chasing a deer she surprised in the woods recently. But I'm not saying everyone can deal with this prevention of chase training..however most pet owners won't need to. They may not walk anywhere near stock, or put their dog on a lead when they do. They may live in a city and never come across livestock. I know plenty of labs and other supposed "good house pet breeds" that have never been trained well and while fairly soft, have chased things inappropriately when off the lead because the owner has no control over recall.
    Chasing rabbits and squirrels is not a lurchers only make up - in fact it's a small part of an overall whole that is pretty awesome I.m.h.o. and the more people I introduce them to, who don't know anything about them, the more people get addicted I find! (In a good way )
    My particular bitch I think alot of general pet owners would have found hard to train in an open country situation, but I like to be able to have my dogs off a lead the majority of the time. However in every other aspect around the home and out she's fantastic. And I believe crossing her with a collie will given the perfect pet. Which will have more chill than a collie, less prey drive, but enough of every other trait in those breeds that make them fantastic dog company.
    B.t.w I would also say pure collies would not be the ideal family pet as alot of people often don't walk their dogs enough..but then I also know plenty of collies in great homes..there's no hard and fast rules, just traits you can work with or not.
    You could pick out the "working" part of any breed and say that's not suitable for pet ownership. But there are plenty of working dogs happy in family homes.
     
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  13. Emma chisset

    Emma chisset PetForums Newbie

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  14. Siskin

    Siskin Look into my eyes....

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    I’m very taken with Silkens and it’s a type of dog (I hesitate to say breed as they are not recognised here yet) that I would like to have. I too like that bidability.
    A neighbour had a greyhound rough collie cross which was a fairly calm dog, but I think the rough collie is a calmer dog then a border collie. They now have a whippet cross border collie who is a nice little dog, but a bit of a live wire off lead and they are having a few issues with her chasing hare and switching off completely from her owners.
     
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  15. BlueJay

    BlueJay Pack of Losers

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    You seem to have quoted me with no response, so not sure what you are trying to say.

    Surely you know that's not how breeding works though?
    You don't get the 'best' traits from both breeds automatically. You can't cross a dog with a high prey drive with a highly intelligent biddable dog and expect all the puppies to be perfect pets. You are just as likely to get high drive maniacs as you are chilled out house buddies.

    To say they don't bark is absolute nonsense.
    Both collies and salukis can be very vocal dogs.
    To say they're typically good with not hassling other dogs is nonsense.
    Sighthounds love to run and chase, and have a typical play style which many dogs absolutely would not appreciate.
    To say they are friendly and biddable is nonsense.
    Many sighthounds are aloof as part of their breed, and biddable certainly isn't a word usually applied to them. Adding collie to the mix does not automatically negate that, especially as many can be nervy and neurotic.
    To say they are chill in the house is nonsense too.
    They are still half collie, highly active and intelligent dogs that ideally need lots of engagement.

    Mixes are so variable that you absolutely cannot make such sweeping statements about them... especially with so many different breeds involved in the mix, AND without having a proven line of specific traits and temperaments in their pedigree that you are trying to preserve.

    The two paragraphs I've quoted from you contradict each other too, so surely you do understand that. You say you believe your dog will produce the perfect pets, even though she doesn't necessarily have the traits you want herself, and then go on to say that there are no hard and fast rules...

    I understand that lurchers and longdogs are very popular crosses - I have two collie type lurchers myself. They can make fantastic pets, but are far from easy dogs and certainly are not for everyone.
    Just being common or having a long history of being bred does not (or should not!) give people free reign to breed them willy nilly, or exclude the people producing them from being held to the same standards as the ethical breeding of any other dogs.

    If you're breeding to produce puppies with certain traits for a certain market, you really need to have specific dogs that fit those traits in your breeding plans, not just your own nice bitch unfortunately.
    Want to produce dogs with low prey drives?
    Breeding a dog with a high prey drive (no matter how well trained) is not the best starting point for that...
     
  16. BlueJay

    BlueJay Pack of Losers

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    And there are just as many (if not more) languishing in rescues and unsuitable homes all over. There are different working lines and show/pet lines of many breeds for very good reason...

    I hate to be that person to bring up rescue dogs on breeding threads (and I'm not anti breeding at all), but does the sheer amount of lurchers in rescues all over the country - even way way way before covid - not suggest to you that they clearly don't make the perfect pets that you are believing your pups will?
     
  17. Raleigh

    Raleigh PetForums Junior

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    I'm afraid I have to second the points other members have made. Especially @BlueJay's point about rescues - I volunteered at a shelter for a few years, and we had far, far more lurchers and collie crosses than most other breeds (about the same intake as staffies). Some of them were sweethearts, too, so no need to convince me of their positive points, but I don't think I ever saw one who had the golden trio of silent, chill, and biddable! As for calm around the home, tell that to the lurchers who liked to try and steal biscuits in the break room. :D

    We do agree on something, though! A lot of a dog's personality will come down to how well it's trained, regardless of breed, that's true, and working breeds can be part of a family who know what they're dealing with. Some traits are inherited, though, because otherwise why would you be breeding to get a cross with "more chill than a collie"? You've said in this thread that you don't think your bitch or collies in general are "the ideal family pet", so what makes you think you will achieve that by adding two unsuitable dogs together? What happens if you only get puppies with your bitch's high prey drive and speed, and a collie's lack of chill and instinctive herding behaviour like nipping? To reiterate, I am not disputing that with proper training, attention, and enrichment, a lurcher or a collie x can make an excellent pet for the right household, but since households with that amount of time, patience, and - most importantly - common sense (see: the explosion in popularity of unhealthy, backyard-bred doodle crosses) are clearly in short supply, I'm not sure breeding more dogs when so many kind, gentle lurchers are in rescue shelters will result in anything other than, well... more dogs in rescue shelters.

    To get back on topic somewhat, I suspect the reason you're struggling to find a properly health-tested, suitable, well-performing collie stud is because most registered stud owners won't outcross to avoid the problems people are describing in this thread. Pedigrees have their issues, but they also have the advantage of being reasonably predictable in their type and needs (there are always exceptions, of course). I imagine most stud owners only outcross as a long-term project spanning generations, not a one-off hoping you get what you want. That means discussing the end goal at length with the bitch's owner, agreeing upon the standard they are aiming for in all puppies and how they intend to achieve it, and performing all relevant health tests for both breeds. To repeat a question from upthread: what health tests were done on the stud you found? And what health tests have you had for your bitch?

    And because I want to end on a positive rather than making this thread seem like a stream of criticism and doubt, you sound like a very dedicated owner, especially if you have the patience to train a lively lurcher so well. :) Just don't forget that not everyone is like you - if more people took their dog's training as seriously as you do, the world would be a better place, and rescue centres would be a lot emptier.
     
    #17 Raleigh, May 4, 2021 at 6:34 PM
    Last edited: May 4, 2021 at 6:40 PM
  18. Rafa

    Rafa PetForums VIP

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    How much smaller is the dog than your bitch?
     
    #18 Rafa, May 4, 2021 at 6:39 PM
    Last edited: May 5, 2021 at 6:41 PM
  19. Linda Weasel

    Linda Weasel PetForums VIP

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    Couldn’t do a quote of that bit, but Collies are ‘predators’. They are just mutated by us to not take it to the ultimate conclusion.
     
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  20. Burrowzig

    Burrowzig PetForums VIP

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    Has the bitch been checked for a vaginal stricture? Friend's bitch turned out to have one and the failed mating was similar.
     
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