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Making 'leave' more reliable

Discussion in 'Dog Training and Behaviour' started by McKenzie, May 1, 2011.


  1. McKenzie

    McKenzie PetForums VIP

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    Does anyone have some advice on how I can improve Kenzie's 'leave'?

    She knows what it means and will do it a lot of the time (I also use swap which works well if she already has it in her mouth) but if it's something she REALLY wants like banana skin, poo etc. she just ignores me, even with my most tasty bit of cheese.

    How can I get her to leave EVERYTHING I ask her to?

    Thanks :)
     
  2. Rottiefan

    Rottiefan PetForums VIP

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    Proofing, proofing, proofing. That's the key. I love Kikopup's video on teaching 'Leave it':
    YouTube - How to teach 'leave it'- without intimidation

    If you're not already, I would practice around the big distractions specifically if she will 'Leave it' around lower level distractions. Keep her on a lead and reward any attention on you and willingness to increase distance from the object or food.
     
  3. SleepyBones

    SleepyBones Banned

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    Well this is a leave reinforcement exercise, the dog is in quite high drive with what seems to be a high values reward (ball), there’s no sound but they have written in the exercises easy to understand and there is a real life emergency with sound immediatly aftwer the ball reinforcement exercise which he really pulls off, notice that dogs relationship with the owner at the end of the real life emergency leave, thats the main reinforcer. So practicing a reinforcement exercise like this, in drive, & using that type of reinforcer seems to be one answer

    YouTube - "Leave" Training Reinforcement Exercise & Use In A Real Life Emergency, E-Collar Trained Dog.

    .
     
    #3 SleepyBones, May 1, 2011
    Last edited: May 1, 2011
  4. McKenzie

    McKenzie PetForums VIP

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    That's a really great video, thanks so much. I've only watched half because I don't have time to watch the whole thing right now but will definitely come back to it. I love the positive nature of it :)
     
  5. Dogless

    Dogless PetForums VIP

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    That was great; I am having the same problem with a selective 'leave it'; all items will be left...bar 'food' which includes rotten banana skins, dead crabs etc. He is clever in that he will leave food in an obvious training situation, even if it is on his paw but I haven't been able to achieve it outside on a walk.

    I have not trained Kilo using a clicker and am very fortunate that he has picked up things as well as he has i suppose, although I do mark the right moment with 'yes' but have been feeling at a loss with leave it.

    I have bought a clicker and am going to begin to try training with it.
     
  6. McKenzie

    McKenzie PetForums VIP

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    What Kilo does sounds like exactly what Kenzie does.

    I only started clicker training about a month ago but I love it. She always learnt quickly anyway, but it's undoubtedly easier with a clicker. Clickers all the way for me now! :eek:
     
  7. Rottiefan

    Rottiefan PetForums VIP

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    Clickers can speed up training if you struggle to get attention from your dog but often using a marker word like 'Yes' is just as good. I use clickers with reactive dogs as they are a noise completely alien to the environment and one that only means 'You did something right, here's a treat'.

    For your 'Leave it' I would, as Jean Donaldson says, 'take it on the road'. Start doing loads of work outside on walks, practising the command and even re-teaching it outside if you have to, instead of hoping that it's going to work. Remember, dogs don't generalise well and may not discriminate between different stimuli (like poo!) and, thus, need to be proofed in those situations and with different stimuli so as to make the command generalisable.
     
  8. McKenzie

    McKenzie PetForums VIP

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    So just to confirm, you would click and treat the moment the dog took their attention off the food item/turned away?
     
  9. Dogless

    Dogless PetForums VIP

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    Thank you; I am a big fan of Jean Donaldson and have taken it on the road with success for objects, people, dogs and bikes which has been really encouraging. For poo, 95% or so is now left which has been a real struggle but food items are just really, really Kilo's main distraction so looking forward to trying this method very much.

    I am so pleased with the rest of his training but I feel that leave is so vital for safety that I really want to get it right. Interestingly his 'drop' is also great for any item (better than leave)...bar food once again but I would love to actually have to use drop less as the item has been left.
     
  10. Rottiefan

    Rottiefan PetForums VIP

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    Yeah. So if you have the dog on a lead like in Kikopup's video, your dog can strain towards the item all they want but you stand like a tree. As soon as the dog willingly turns and comes towards you, click and treat. You can then raise the criteria by waiting till the dog leaves it and looks up at you, making eye contact. I will also randomly ask for a leave it, click and treat, then say 'Take it' and allow them to get the bit of food or whatever's on the ground, so the dog learns that even if they are allowed the item, they still have to wait for a command in order to get it. It depends on how you are practising it really, though.

    On a walk, I'd bring a banana skin along with you and frequently drop it to the ground, not using the 'Leave it' yet, and wait until she stops straining for it and turns around to you/gives you eye contact or both, then click and treat. As soon as she learns the drill, you can introduce the 'Leave it', then make the situations harder for you. Practise dropping the banana skin/throwing it in front so the dog almost can't resist going for it, and practise the above.
     
  11. Rottiefan

    Rottiefan PetForums VIP

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    How about, instead of focusing on 'leave it', make an ultra bomb-proof 'SIT' command, which will work at a distance? 'Leave it' is good for close range, where a dog may just need to put his head down to get something, but for safety, a good distance sit will stop the dog in her or his tracks.
     
  12. McKenzie

    McKenzie PetForums VIP

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    Great, thanks.

    I can't wait to take a banana skin on our walks :D :lol:
     
  13. Dogless

    Dogless PetForums VIP

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    Good idea; have been making steady progress with this too in low distraction environments, steadily trying to creep up the distraction scale.

    I do still want to get a good leave it as well so will try the method in that video - I love the idea of a 'default leave it'; it had never occurred to me, although I have a default sit before we cross a road I had just not been bright enough to think my way around the problem. Glad someone else was!!
     
  14. LuvMyDog_Worldwide

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    No No No, use the R+ way. Simply ignore the undesired behavior and reward the desired behavior...........

    It's the only way and 100% successful, isn't it? Your words exactly.


    regards,

    Austin
     
  15. LuvMyDog_Worldwide

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    Willingly? Like has no other option at all.......um, that's an aversive method.

    Good to see double standards disguised as friendly....


    regards,

    Austin
     
  16. RobD-BCactive

    RobD-BCactive PetForums VIP

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    Rewards based training, using R+ in practice often uses P- to set the dog up for success. In fact by definition, reinforcing one behaviour punishes alternatives. There is nothing wrong with setting a dog up for success.

    Being on a lead is not aversive when used well, many dogs are very happy to be on lead, straining on a lead is also not aversive. If it were significantly aversive people would find it easy to break the habit of "pulling" by simply resisting the lead tension; everyone knows that does not work.

    It's interesting to see you attempt to attack Rottiefan, I notice you have had a thread pulled by the Mod's recently, and perhaps you should reconsider who you acuse of "ignorance" when you make posts like this which show serious ommisions in your personal research you claim to have done to form your opinions.
     
  17. McKenzie

    McKenzie PetForums VIP

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    Just a thought guys - how about using language even us common folk can understand? :rolleyes:
     
  18. Rottiefan

    Rottiefan PetForums VIP

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    I'm sorry your post has been hacked and jumped on by LuvMyDogs McKenzie. Just ignore him/her.
     
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