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Lilac parents both carrying colourpoint

Discussion in 'Cat Breeding' started by Holly BtoB, Nov 27, 2019.


  1. QOTN

    QOTN PetForums VIP

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    I have now looked up the first cross. The parents were Ch Boadicat Mr Toddy (40/3) and Rexlizian Doughnut (37k) Six babies born 3rd March 1992. ( 2 self lilac males, 1 self lilac female, 1 self chocolate male and 2 chocolate point males.) Breeder was Rita Ford (Bluespice.) She kept the self lilac girl and one of the pointed males and said 'Hopefully, in 1993/4 the first British type cinnamon/fawns will be born.'

    Perhaps @gskinner123 can tell us if the colourpoints were already in the British breed at that point.

    (Irrelevant but Sayonara Black Magician and Apri Cinnamon Fizz are in my foundation pedigrees!)
     
    OrientalSlave likes this.
  2. Tetley&Kenco

    Tetley&Kenco PetForums Senior

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    They looked cream when I met them as babies, here are baby photos of the litter ages 12.5 weeks that I took.... and I clearly forgot the girls were bicolour! So actually that fawn adolescent the breeder showed a picture of isn’t one of them so I don’t know what colours these girls are registered as! I know she kept the girl with less white for breeding.

    B253E5B9-5C38-441A-B303-002A14FABE0B.jpeg
    5F2841B2-4318-40DD-B378-B8EFC9212CD6.jpeg
    0B37B470-6CF5-4C4E-AF6D-B2F4AB5A2D14.jpeg
     
  3. Tigermoon

    Tigermoon PetForums VIP

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    I always find the background of breeds fascinating, particularly in relation to colour or pattern introduction.
     
  4. OrientalSlave

    OrientalSlave Shunra Oriental Cats

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    Just found this on Pawpeds!

    https://pawpeds.com/db/?a=p&id=903182&g=4&p=bri
     
  5. Tigermoon

    Tigermoon PetForums VIP

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  6. OrientalSlave

    OrientalSlave Shunra Oriental Cats

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    It was a long time ago!
     
  7. Tigermoon

    Tigermoon PetForums VIP

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    I wonder why they did it that way though, why not just mate the Siamese directly to a British?
     
  8. Psygon

    Psygon Yoshi Tonks! :-)

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    Yes, sorry - I didn't specifically mean they were albino, meant albino genes. It was late!

    I guess what I don't fully understand though, is if in a colour pointed cat the blue eyes are blue because of the abcense of colour/pigment, when a colour point cat has bad eye colour does that mean that actually the cat has some eye colour / pigment that's showing through and making the blue less blue? And is that the polygenes doing that?

    Or am I just totally misunderstanding what is making the blue eye blue.
     
  9. OrientalSlave

    OrientalSlave Shunra Oriental Cats

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    They have reduced pigment. An eye with no pigment is pink. Polygenes will affect the depth of colour as they do in all cats.
     
  10. OrientalSlave

    OrientalSlave Shunra Oriental Cats

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    I think there are other matings where that is what was done.
     
  11. gskinner123

    gskinner123 PetForums VIP

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    The Colourpointed British Shorthair cat club was founded in 1991 and the variety was well under way by then. Cinnamon and Fawn was added several years later but they have remained very much a minority amongst the other CP colours.

    I bought a seal colourpointed BSH kitten for my daughter in the early mid nineties from one of the founder breeders. He had very good eye colour by comparison to most of our current day CP's...his coat, however, was not great
     
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  12. gskinner123

    gskinner123 PetForums VIP

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    Even were it to be permissible - and it never will be - mating a BSH to a Siamese to improve eye colour is a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

    Tigermoon - I really don't share your confidence that such big improvement can be achieved in a few generations :) Or rather I'm sure it is if, for example, one used a Siamese to improve blue eye colour in BSH. But I can honestly assure you that I would then spend 15 years regaining, with consistency, what I had lost :)
     
  13. Tigermoon

    Tigermoon PetForums VIP

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    I have that confidence because I've actually done it, and got back eye colour along with retaining the required type and the desired coat colour in just three years (three generations) ;) I'm not alone in successfully doing this either.

    Having said that, I have no idea why anyone would use Siamese to improve eye colour in British when more suitable breeds exist if that was the intended purpose for such an outcross to occur.
     
  14. QOTN

    QOTN PetForums VIP

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  15. QOTN

    QOTN PetForums VIP

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    I remember Rita Ford's shock at that first litter of 6. They were the size and weight of BSH but the temperament of Orientals, climbing the curtains and generally typical otherwise. I don't know how long it took to achieve good British type but I would have thought it would be harder to get a good coat from Persians than Orientals and outcrosses to Persians are still relatively recent in BSH.
     
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  16. OrientalSlave

    OrientalSlave Shunra Oriental Cats

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    Lots of cinnamon and a few fawns there.
     
  17. OrientalSlave

    OrientalSlave Shunra Oriental Cats

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    I saw some of the 1990s cats when I lived in Leeds and they were very foxy.
     
  18. OrientalSlave

    OrientalSlave Shunra Oriental Cats

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    Very.
     
  19. gskinner123

    gskinner123 PetForums VIP

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    I have seen people, good breeders, strive to make a significant improvement in eye colour - any eye colour - within a few generations. In my and the shared experiences of others it is hard to achieve - to me, the key is consistency and maintaining it in subsequent generations.

    One may be fortunate enough (I am talking about my own breed as that's my only experience) to get a kitten with much improved eye colour. But when your only available option for the next generation is poor eye colour then you don't have a lot of choice do you? Such is breeding; a few big strides forward with a bit of luck on your side and a step back next time
     
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  20. gskinner123

    gskinner123 PetForums VIP

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    Without wishing to be unkind - they had to start somewhere - they were dreadful for type and remained that way for a very long time indeed. Even now one can still see their ancestral influence in some cats of these colours
     
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