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Lilac parents both carrying colourpoint

Discussion in 'Cat Breeding' started by Holly BtoB, Nov 27, 2019.


  1. OrientalSlave

    OrientalSlave Shunra Oriental Cats

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    There is no such thing as 'the fawn gene' any more than there is 'the blue gene'.

    Fawn is dilute cinnamon, not a recessive of cinnamon. Cinnamon is recessive to chocolate which is recessive to black.

    I think it's a stunning colour on self cats. I don't like it on tabbys as there isn't much contrast, and it gets very pale & wishy washy on colourpoints.

    This is Basil, a fawn Oriental.

    IMG_20180714_145752_1024.jpg
     
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  2. OrientalSlave

    OrientalSlave Shunra Oriental Cats

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    And if @Holly BtoB wondered, I've seen cinnamon & fawn BSH. I preferred the fawn, very much because the orange eyes stand out against it. They rather blend into a cinnamon coat, which is well named as it's just about the same colour as a stick of cinnamon.
     
  3. gskinner123

    gskinner123 PetForums VIP

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    I don't think I have ever seen a BSH CP that I've looked at and thought "now that's really decent blue eye colour".

    I am not convinced that the presence of CP in self lines makes much, if any, difference to orange eyes.

    Most 'serious', dedicated self breeders are not keen at all on having CP in their breed lines and perhaps the truest thing that could be said is that many traditionally bred selfs would be selected in part on eye colour. Cats with a bit of a 'jumbled' pedigree - and they'll often include all three eye colours - most usually aren't being selected for anything in particular at all so you'd perhaps not expect to see consistently good eye colour of any of the three colours
     
  4. OrientalSlave

    OrientalSlave Shunra Oriental Cats

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    I agree about CP in self lines, and I wonder how much of the breeding with CP has gone towards coat texture (imagine it was rather long & soft at first) forgetting eye colour? Certainly it seems bizarre to me that a few BSH colours should have green eyes and the rest of the non-CP cats should have orange!
     
  5. QOTN

    QOTN PetForums VIP

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    To get a fawn from this mating, the sire has to be chocolate carrying cinnamon and the dam black carrying cinnamon. Since there is cream in the litter, the sire carries dilute as has already been stated and as the mother is blue she has two dilute genes so the dilute is not a problem.

    Unless the red bicolour sire is a wrongly registered tabby the sister cannot be a spottie so I suspect it is more likely she is a funny colour cream because tabby markings nearly always show on red and cream cats even when they are not tabbies.
     
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  6. QOTN

    QOTN PetForums VIP

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    Although not really relevant to this thread, I thought perhaps people should be able to decide about wishy washy fawn points for themselves!
    caffeine fix.jpg

    Saxo kitten.jpg

    Perhaps I just like wishy washy!
     
  7. Tetley&Kenco

    Tetley&Kenco PetForums Senior

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    The dad appears to have spots in his red, but is registered as red/white bicolour. I think both the sisters must be fawn spotted and not cream because they looked identical!

    Oh and Tetley has spotted ghost markings in his chocolate, but only visible in some lights, they’re very faint!
     
  8. QOTN

    QOTN PetForums VIP

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    If the sire is registered with GCCF he will have had to have a DNA test to prove he was non-agouti if he had a tabby parent. I don't know if that is the case with all registering bodies but the agouti gene is dominant so one parent must be tabby to get a tabby offspring.

    All cats have tabby patters and they are more likely to show in chocolate and cinnamon self colour cats although some self blacks also show ghosting.
     
  9. spotty cats

    spotty cats PetForums VIP

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    A pretty and delicate colour. Nice to see you posting again qotn :)
     
  10. Tetley&Kenco

    Tetley&Kenco PetForums Senior

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    He is GCCF registered and I have my boys’ pedigrees back 5 generations and no tabby on it, although great great great grandparents are sketchy on the details
     
  11. Psygon

    Psygon Yoshi Tonks! :-)

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    So I may be so totally wrong in this so just tell me if I am :-D

    Is it the case that in Siamese colour points, the blue eyes actually have no colour because they are albinos? And that the blue is created by the way colour hits the iris and the wavelength of blue being shorter than other colours?

    And if so... And if BSH blue eyes aren't as blue, does that mean BSH aren't albinos and their eyes are actually blue in colour?

    Intrigued!
     
  12. OrientalSlave

    OrientalSlave Shunra Oriental Cats

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    It's exactly the same gene in bsh & siamese, neither are albinos. I have no idea why the eye colour is so poor in cp bsh.
     
  13. gskinner123

    gskinner123 PetForums VIP

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    As a breed, being so diverse for colour/pattern, each with its own (partially) different SOP, breeders will tend to focus on the main "thing" for that breed...so yes, other elements can be overlooked
     
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  14. gskinner123

    gskinner123 PetForums VIP

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    I can think of no genetic reason why BSH CP eye colour should not (be able to) rival the best blue of any other blue eyed breeds - it just never does and is sometimes so pale as to be a washed out, icy blue/grey.

    The closest non BSH ancestor that introduced the point gene was of course Persian...and their pointed blue eye colour is never as intense as other blue eyed breeds either.
     
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  15. OrientalSlave

    OrientalSlave Shunra Oriental Cats

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    Neither can I. However it might have got reintroduced with the cinnamon program back in the 1990s, which used osh. A great many of them carry cp.
     
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  16. Tigermoon

    Tigermoon PetForums VIP

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    With regards to the eye colour in CP cats the simple fact is it it's ignored in most breeds which don't come only in colourpoint ... the exception to this being Ragdolls who also often have poor eye colour, but that is because today's breeders don't read their SOP!!

    Poor eye colour is down to breeding practices and sadly, even the Birman is starting to slide into the 'average at best' group when it comes to eye colour. Having said that, good quality deep blue colour is a nightmare to retain if the breed as a whole isn't consistent. Cats by nature want to have yellowy-green eyes and they'll revert at the drop of a hat. This is why breeders dislike having CPs or green- eyed cats in self pedigrees, or selfs in CP pedigrees etc. However my personal opinion is that it's due to laziness on the part of the breeders as eye colour can always be bred back to within just a couple of generations (sometimes you get lucky and it's never lost even in the first cross).
     
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  17. gskinner123

    gskinner123 PetForums VIP

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    I agree, Tigermoon. The only way to improve eye colour is to select for it constantly but I'm not sure the starting point (excuse the pun) in BSH CP's is good enough, such that you could be at it for years...and in the meantime have lost many or most even of the other qualities you need to meet the SOP

    I would say that of the CP breeders I know well, good eye colour is of course always welcome but near the bottom of list for selection criteria... there is so much else to try and get right and poor eye colour has almost become the acceptable norm. We do see this to an extent in orange and green eyed BSH too
     
  18. Tigermoon

    Tigermoon PetForums VIP

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    You can have it all within a very, very short time-span. In my personal experience, just 3 years, and that was starting from a completely different eye colour altogether! IMHO only a very poor breeder would lose the required elements of the SOP while trying to improve on another in an already established breed.

    However breeders don't want to wait, they want it now. They are quite happy to let someone else do the legwork then jump on the bandwagon when its finished. This is also my personal experience!
     
  19. QOTN

    QOTN PetForums VIP

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    You are correct that the Siamese coat pattern is one of the mutations in the albino alleles series. Full colour is the 'normal' then in order of dominance, Burmese colour restriction, Siamese colour restriction, then blue eyed recessive white and finally albino. This is why Siamese eyes glow red in the dark.

    But as has already been mentioned, the colourpoints in other breeds are the same mutation introduced originally from the Siamese although sometimes by a circuitous route. The cinnamon British Shorthairs came from a cross between a BSH and an Oriental in, I think, 1992. As Oriental Slave has said the original mating that introduced the cinnamon gene into the Oriental population was with a Siamese but I cannot remember, exact pedigrees of the cross with BSH. I do not know when BSH colourpoints were first recognised.

    As has also been said, as with most characteristics in pedigree cat breeds, the differences are governed by polygenes and to get the correct eye colour the appropriate polygenes must be present so an initial intention must be to mate to good eye colour. Unfortunately, that does not always mean they will assort as desired and most breeders have to compromise and set their own priorities.

    This means the spots are ghosting in the cream. I wonder if the two girls could be lilac torties not fawn, since lilac is possible as your boy is chocolate. My fawn tortie looked lilac to me and actually still does but I tested her and she is fawn. I think her poor fawn colour came from the fact that her cream is also a bad colour.
    blah 4.a.jpg

    She looks a better colour above because the light is good but this second pic shows the dubious shades!
    blah 4.b.jpg
     
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  20. OrientalSlave

    OrientalSlave Shunra Oriental Cats

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    I did find some of the very early crosses to introduce cinnamon, the one SIA o I can find in Pawpeds is APRI ELCHIRIDAH PLUTO, SIA o, born 03/10/1987, sire SAYONARA BLACK MAGICIAN, dam APRI CINNAMON FIZZ. I'm sure I found one elsewhere which was a JADEVYN OSH or SIA.
     
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