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inbreeding

Discussion in 'Dog Breeding' started by nici, Nov 30, 2007.


  1. nici

    nici PetForums Senior

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    just a question for anyone who would like to anwser, is it ok to breed a bitch with her son? :confused:, no i have`nt done this but know someone that has and they have said its fine, but i always thought that there should be a good gap in the generations.
     
  2. Magik

    Magik Guest

    it sounds very wrong!!!
     
  3. may

    may PetForums VIP

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    :eek:I think this is a bit to close,
    Daughter to Grand father I have done and was very pleased with the babies,
    half brother half sister I have done not as pleased, but it worked with some of the litter, Obviuously then you go out!:)
     
  4. nici

    nici PetForums Senior

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    no i wouldnt either but i suppose some do, thanks for that
     
  5. Jenny Olley

    Jenny Olley PetForums VIP

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    I wouldn't do it, the gene pool is too small, I don't like any of the dogs on the 5 generation pedigree to be the same, however I understand that with rarer breeds this would be more difficult.
     
  6. carol

    carol PetForums VIP

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    i wouldnt do that
    you need to have distance in the pedigree or could get defects or worse
     
  7. noubi

    noubi PetForums Member

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    its not a line i would follow thats for sure;)
     
  8. jan-c

    jan-c Guest

    Inbreeding should be left to only the very experienced breeder. Yes it is a way to set your lines and breed type but should only be considered with 2 outstanding specimens of the breed and only if generations of the pedigree have no serious faults. Whilst outstanding points are doubled up on so are the faults. It is not a decision to be taken lightly.
    Quite a lot of the Crufts B.I.S winners are inbred and there is no doubt that this can produce outstanding specimins but the opposite can also apply.
     
  9. nici

    nici PetForums Senior

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    oh thanks for that i thought it was just not meant to be done:eek: i thought that you needed a few generations away from each dog,that makes me feel better
     
  10. Eolabeo

    Eolabeo Guest

    when i bought my staffy 14 years ago, her parents are half brother and sister, she is from the well know champion lancstaff sparbu saga line with champion rouge saga and champion maulaser mauler ect, and she has the best temp anyone could wish for in a dog, all im saying is im pleased with her breeding even tho it is so close :) . i can say she may be 14 but she looks great for her age and has alot of go in her compaired to other staffs i know that age.
     
  11. nici

    nici PetForums Senior

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    yes i just found out my powder puff`s mum is also his gran so the breeder had put mum and son together, must say it shocked me :eek:
     
  12. Brainless

    Brainless Guest

    In breeding cannot produce anything that is not already latent in the bloodlines and can be a powerful tool to eradicate or expose problems.

    It should not be practised willy nilly without a great deal of knowledge without very good reason.

    Certainly in my own breed the closest most people would go would be half brother to sister which in proportion of shared bloodlines in the offspring is the same as first cousin mating, except with half siblings you are line breeding on one grandparent and not two.

    In Finland the KC has a registry that is publicly accessible and you can look up the details of any dog and find out it's main show wins, it's health screening, how many litters it has had or sired, results of their health screening etc.

    I'm used a Norwegian dog exported to Finland so did some research and the pedigrees showed far lower inbreeding co-efficients than many people assume.

    Of course puppy farmers will breed with anything they have regardless of it's health and relationship, so if you inbreed with sick stock this is what you will get more of.

    Most knowledgeable breeders will practise occasional inbreeding to fix a trait or to test a new bloodline. If you for example mate half siblings from a new imported line for which you have less in depth knowledge than your own or local lines you will be able to see if the close pairing throws up problems BEFORE the bloodline is inextricably woven into the gene pool.

    I can see no reason to mate a parent to offspring unless you are trying to prove a point re carrier status of some disease, and you would have to be prepared to deal with the consequences if problems occur.

    It is not in the interest of reputable breeders to produce puppies with problems as these breeders will take responsibility for the pups they breed.

    On the other hand a puppy farmer or casual breeder won't care or Know what happens to the pups they breed after they leave them.

    The closest I have ever bred was half siblings.

    I have twice bred half uncle to niece (a bitch to it's mothers half brother) with excellent results.

    Since then I have outcrossed for two generations so plan to linebreed to my bitches own line. Bearing in mind that both sires of the half brother sister pair are Imports (one Norwegian the other American) and unrelated to each other or the bitches they were mated to I feel I need to do this so as not to loose the type of the bitches line.

    This is a numerically small breed so it is important to think ahead as to what there will be from other breeders to breed ones offspring to, and to try to avoid everyone doing the same things and breeding into corners that only new blood can dig you out of and then you loose uniformity again.

    Barbara
     
  13. nat1979

    nat1979 PetForums VIP

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    Wow just found this old thread and they was not any rows
     
  14. master groomer

    master groomer PetForums Newbie

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    I cant belive its even a question, of course you shouldent inbreed, crufts champions indeed. thats why a lot of the breeds have so many health problems? would you sleep with your mother? i think not, step sister? no way, your cousin, well heck no, then why oh why do some breeders think its ok for there dogs, if your not willing to put in the time to find a mate thats a good match, then please dont take the easy way out and inbreed, shame on you
     
  15. Yogi B

    Yogi B PetForums Member

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    #15 Yogi B, Oct 11, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2009
  16. comfortcreature

    comfortcreature PetForums VIP

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    I am not a fan of inbreeding or even close linebreeding. I do know and understand inbreeding was and is used in breeding programs, and at the start of a breed is the quickest and probably most effective way (not necessarily the best) to set traits . . . that does not mean that after a breed is established in type that breeders should readily accept that the tool of inbreeding should be continued with.

    Once type is established there should be enough animals in a population to get a typey dog WITHOUT inbreeding or linebreeding closely - although this takes more work and relies on breeders being honest with each other about faults in their lines (which is why many breeders hate the idea of outcrossing).

    I really like this quote:

    "Inbreeding was once a valuable tool in shaping today's breeds. As these have now reached a high degree of homogeneity, it has lost its importance and turned into a fatal and disastrous habit." Hellmuth Wachtel, Ph.D. (zoologist)

    ________________________

    From the links provided, this next paragraph is particularly weak, and as I have been on a canine genetics list for years reading the posts of many zoologists and geneticists, I would have to say it is very misleading to attribute this kind inprecise statement to geneticists as a group.

    According to geneticists, Line-breeding can be carried on for many generations without deleterious effects on the line or breed as long as the individuals involved have few hidden genetic disorders. Testing of both parents, and of as many previous generations as possible, is key to ensuring a line bred litter has the maximum chances of being free of inherited diseases.

    What is glossed over is that currently there is NO WAY TO TELL if an individual animal has "few genetic disorders". This makes the full paragraph farcical. As there are only a TINY number of tests for genetic disorders, most of the tests carried out on sires/dams simply tell what that animal shows on that day (phenotypic tests, not genetic) - they can not tell what the animal carries. It is true that knowing the health behind your breeding stock is helpful and does help to diminish risks -diminishing is far from eliminating.

    Here IS a quote from a geneticist:

    "The breeding of purebred dogs is akin to (breeding laboratory mice)...(most breeds) are becoming progressively more inbred. My observation is that most are on the road to extinction, but most breeders do not even realize they are part of an experiment." John B. Armstrong, Ph.D.

    . . . and another:

    "However, we ignore the biological impacts of the practice (inbreeding) at our peril - or more accurately, the peril for our dogs." C.A. Sharp president of the Australian Shepherd Genetic sand Health Institute

    . . . and another from Hellmuth Wachtell: Elite Breeding and Canine Genetic Diversity

    "I tentatively would think if all close breeding stopped today, the hereditary defect rate would immediately shrink by 10-20%. What an enormous relief of suffering, vet expenditures, and emotional distress….But every mating of relatives that could be dissuaded from, may prevent one or more sick dogs and thus is worth the convincing effort."

    I also noticed that both the links you provided about inbreeding, although they did describe accurately inbreeding - linebreeding - and outcrossing, managed to avoid speaking to the possible risks and suffering incurred by the dogs for such experimentation. Maybe because they were from breeder's sites?:(

    As someone who has been caretaker to a deaf and inbred (son to mother) immune compromised dog that died at 3 1/2 years (she lived the longest from her litter of three) I have to ask why some breeders think they should have the right to inbreed dogs (experiment) and "express genetic defects". What IMPORTANT goal are they attempting to achieve that justifies this risk to the pups? . . . because in my mind the goal best be incredibly vital if this is what they are doing.:confused:
    ________________________

    A little about Coefficient Of Inbreeding for breeders:

    COI is the calculation of the level of inbreeding in a dog or litter.

    High COI percentages increase the probability that genetic defects will be carried from common ancestors on both sides of the pedigree and will match up to cause the actual genetic disease or defect in the animal.

    Many other problems of a high COI also affect dogs, such as Autoimmune disease and inbreeding depression symptoms, which result in reproductive and longevity issues.

    A COI of 12.5% is equivalent to a half brother to half sister mating or a grandparent to grandchild mating.

    A COI of 25% is equivalent to a parent-child or brother to sister mating.

    John Armstrong studied inbred and linebred poodles and showed that risk of early death increased as the COI rose above 6.25% - average months of life dropping off the higher the COI rose. Another study was completed on Rhodesian Ridgebacks showing the same result. Some more information on COI and these studies, and links to the studies, can be found from the following page.

    Inbreeding Australian Ridgeback COI

    I do think for breeders, as well, it is most important to understand the gradual effects of inbreeding and linebreeding on a closed population as a whole (Population Genetics) - as those who are involved in breed clubs are claiming to protect their breeds, they best be doing so and not just looking at what works best for their own line or kennel. This paper is a good start:

    Purebred Dog Breeds into the Twenty-First Century: Achieving Genetic Health for Our Dogs
     
    #16 comfortcreature, Oct 11, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2009
  17. Yogi B

    Yogi B PetForums Member

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    I apologize for any misinterpretation, as I was addressing the point of inbreeding as opposed to line breeding. They are different but prior posts were questioning as to all being considered what appeared to me to be inbreeding.
    Genetics aside at this point as for many years people have been aware of the effects of both. Unfortunately, breeders do still continue this practice when instead of looking to other countries for breed stock which would greatly reduce the need for these types of breeding. The emphasis on staying to standards and breed betterment falls on breeders but in many cases they look to their own stock to see what it is they want to develop and from this stock is where the inbreeding and line breeding is created. The few breeders I know, will line breed once, not repeatedly with the breed stock they have. I know none that have ever inbred and for obvious reasons. But it is unfortunate that with so much emphasis on perfection with regards to show quality dogs and meeting standards set by breed clubs that breeders have fallen into this idea that the only way in many cases to obtain and maintain the level of dogs they have is to look at line breeding.
    Maybe when standards are altered as they have been in many original breeds over the years, will breeders look at even line breeding as non essential.
    We can only hope.
     
  18. comfortcreature

    comfortcreature PetForums VIP

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    Yogi B, I was not arguing with any specific poster on this topic, and fully understood from your first line that you were not a promoting the idea of inbreeding and probably had a good amount of knowledge on the topic. :D I guess that I take it for granted that breeders on a breeding forum know the common use of the three terms, inbreeding, linebreeding and outcrossing, and I've read what is written on those links referenced many times, and really dislike how the glaze past risks so I had to comment. Linebreeding IS the more common tool used . . . but different breeders have differing definitions of just where that line is drawn between what they call line and inbreeding. Of course geneticists have a single term, inbreeding.

    Indeed Professor Sir Patrick Bateson has even recently provided a quote calling linebreeding and inbreeding "a distinction without a difference" although I know that breeders are much more easily convinced of the dangers of inbreeding than those of linebreeding if both terms are being considered in a conversation. (These risks are more easily seen and demonstrated as conditions show themselves more quickly when inbreeding as opposed to "linebreeding" - more distant inbreeding.)

    Unfortunately in the breed that I was going to get involved in, grandfather to granddaughter "linebred" pairings are often mentored as the best way of starting your kennel and line - this is to people who are essentially new to the breed.

    I still don't know a single breeder, or know of a single breeder, that I believe has complete enough knowledge of the lines behind their dogs, as well as dogs in the breadth of the pedigree to risk close linebreeding or inbreeding . . . so I guess I would quibble about the idea of what a "qualified" enough breeder is.

    I agree . . . we can only hope.
     
    #18 comfortcreature, Oct 11, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2009
  19. kelseye

    kelseye Banned

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    its not right for humans to do it so why should it be different for animals as they are living things aswell....
     
  20. comfortcreature

    comfortcreature PetForums VIP

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    As I was the one complaining about the two links provided, I thought I'd find one that does describe different breeding schemes, and that does go into a bit about risks. This is by the late geneticist Dr. John Armstrong . . . wish he was still with us.

    SiriusDog.com - Breeding Schemes

    It includes descriptions of random mating, inbreeding and linebreeding, and assortative mating. It starts like this:

    Breeders often talk about inbreeding and outcrossing as though they were the only possibilities -- and generally with negative comments about the latter. There are other possibilities, and I have long been a proponent of assortative mating. It is not a theoretical concept that doesn't work in practice; I know several breeders who do it and achieve good results. This essay will attempt to explain why it is a good idea, but first I need to define the alternatives.


    and this important part is in the middle somewhere:

    About the only animals that are routinely inbred to a high level are laboratory mice and rats. There, the breeders start breeding many lines simultaneously in the expectation that the majority will die out or will suffer significant inbreeding depression, which generally means that they are smaller, produce fewer offspring, are more susceptible to disease, and have a shorter average lifespan. Dogs are no different. If you can start with enough lines, a few may make it through the genetic bottleneck with acceptable fitness. However, dog breeders generally don't have the resources to start several dozen or more lines simultaneously.

    Sometimes two different alleles may be better than one. Consider the major histocompatibility complex (MHC). These genes are responsible for distinguishing "self" from "foreign", and a heterozygous individual can recognize more possibilities than a homozygous one. Having a variety of MHC alleles is even more important to population survival. Not only does this provide better defense against pathogens, but there is growing evidence that parents who carry different MHC haplotypes may have fewer fertility problems. This is not a universally accepted theory, but today one is hard pressed to find a conservation or zoo biologist concerned with preserving an endangered species who would not list maintaining maximum genetic diversity as one of his/her primary goals
     
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