Silly question here, but how come merles in other breeds aren't banned? Cause Merle to Merle breeding in any breed is bad surely?

Are there any health risks with other 'unaccepted' colours in any other breeds? Lemon or tri coloured dalmations for example?
This page explores the coat and color variations seen in Dalmatians.
Long haired rotties?

I don't know an awful lot about breeding so just wondering.

 

Silly question here, but how come merles in other breeds aren't banned? Cause Merle to Merle breeding in any breed is bad surely?

Are there any health risks with other 'unaccepted' colours in any other breeds? Lemon or tri coloured dalmations for example?
This page explores the coat and color variations seen in Dalmatians.
Long haired rotties?

I don't know an awful lot about breeding so just wondering.

I would imagine because it's always been an accepted marking for those breeds that the KC allow to be registered with these markings.

 

I would imagine because it's always been an accepted marking for those breeds that the KC allow to be registered with these markings.

So do you think that if we suddenly 'discovered' merle collies now, the KC probably wouldn't accept them?

 

It wasn't blue boxers, more blue coat colour, dobermans and chihuahua's are known to suffer problems and I think staffies have a higher incidence of problems as well when they have a blue coat.

Breeding for a merle coat is (to me) like breeding for a carrier status. Whilst it's acceptable to have a carrier status with the aim to breed clear, I personally don't think it's ethical to breed specifically for something that could cause such health issues. Particularly as not all merle's are obvious. I don't think it's ever ethical to breed solely for colour when there are much more important issues to consider before colour alone.

Yes like ear position huh?

With colour genetics, it is not the aim to breed clear, although in everything where there can be carriers I highly doubt there will ever be clear in every dog as it would narrow down the gene pool.

I am not getting into this argument again, as it has been done to death by you, but there is nothing wrong with blue merle breeding, or breeding for colour, as we already know you wanted to breed from your bitch to keep a chocolate lab and you did.

Merles are healthy dogs, just a different colour. It is only when merle to merle breeding occurs that there CAN be problems, this is no longer allowed.

 

So do you think that if we suddenly 'discovered' merle collies now, the KC probably wouldn't accept them?

Merle to merle mating is not allowed by the KC and you cannot register a litter from two parents who are both merle.

 

So do you think that if we suddenly 'discovered' merle collies now, the KC probably wouldn't accept them?

I would like to hope, if merle was discovered and associated with the health defects caused by this genetic mutation, that they would very much say that it shouldn't be bred for:

Gene for Merle Color Pattern Discovered | AKC Canine Health Foundation

 

The skin issue thing was more to do with blue coats, which is why I stuck a comma in there, but it has been associated with alopecia and similar problems with dogs that have a blue coat.

Rough collies with blue merle coats do not seem to have any skin issues at all.

I know in staffies they seem to have issues, although I think it goes hand in hand with the poor breeding tbh, not just their colour but most blue staff breeders are not concerned with the health of dogs so you may have a black staff with the same skin issues.

 

Not necessarily. Genes mutate all the time. As the merle gene we know in many breeds is 'dominant', there's a chance the same mutation can happen again spontaneously.

Recessive can re-mutate as well... in fact the case of remutation I am most familiar with did involve a recessive gene.

Seeing as there are now merle French Bulldogs, Staffies, as well as Chi's being imported, it is far more likely to be down to cross-breeding, just like the 'new' Black and Tan Pugs and other unrecognised colours.

Merles are healthy dogs, just a different colour. It is only when merle to merle breeding occurs that there CAN be problems, this is no longer allowed.

I am kicking myself right now, as few months ago I was given the link to a published research paper studying the health of ALL merles, not just double merles. They did find a higher percentage of eye anomalies and deafness. Can't find the link now, but passed it onto a friend with a merle dog who has had severe immune system issues, so I will try to resurrect it.

Rough collies with blue merle coats do not seem to have any skin issues at all.

I know in staffies they seem to have issues, although I think it goes hand in hand with the poor breeding tbh, not just their colour but most blue staff breeders are not concerned with the health of dogs so you may have a black staff with the same skin issues.

I can see there's some confusion here.
The Merle gene is entirely different to the colour "Blue" seen in some breeds.

"Blue" is down to the Dilution Gene [D], which is recessive, and when two copies of the gene are present, dilutes the coat colour of Black dogs to a Blue-grey, and Liver/Chocolate/'Red' to a paler warm grey termed Lilac.

In some breeds of dog which have the Dilution gene present, there is an associative disorder known as Colour Dilution Alopecia [CDA]. Dogs with this disorder are always Blue or 'Lilac'. It presents as a poor or thinning coat especially around the hindquarters. There may be some skin sensitivity as well but I'm not sure that has been pinpointed as a direct result of the colour.

There are some breeds of dog with the Dilution gene, where CDA does not occur. Border Collies and Weimaraners are examples where it is absent; Dobermanns and Staffies are breeds where is does.

It is thought that a modifier gene in the affected breeds is the culprit, carried alongside the Dilution gene but only expressing itself when there are two copies of D (i.e. when the dog is blue or lilac). It has no effect on black or chocolate (or any other colour).

Merle - The effect of the Merle gene is to create a dappled effect where the background colour is 'blue' with darker patches (on a genetically black dog). It produces light pinky red background with darker brown patches on a genetically Choc/Liver/'Red'/Brown dog.

It is also possible to have a merle dog that is genetically "Blue" (with the Dilution gene), i understand these are termed Slate Merles in some breeds. Likewise you can also get Lilac Merles.

I hope I have explained the difference between "Blue" as in "Blue Merles" and "Blue" as in Blue Dilution and the other effects of the Dilution gene.

 

As always great post :thumbsup: