Welcome!

Welcome to PetForums, the UK's most popular and friendly pet owners community. Please 'Sign Up' if you'd like to take part and contribute to our forum.

Sign Up

How unscrupulous breeders try to dupe potential buyers (and often succeed).

Discussion in 'Dog Chat' started by ouesi, Sep 10, 2016.


  1. ouesi

    ouesi Guest

    I thought this would be helpful to share on the forum.

    We’ve all seen the threads. Poster has bred or is going to breed their dogs, forum members ask about health tests, most fess up and say they don’t have them, don’t need them, some try to pretend that they do.

    I want to talk about the latter kind and how it pertains to anyone looking to buy a puppy from a breeder.

    After one of *those* threads, the poster contacted me via PM and demanded that I answer the original question. I basically told them to go pound sand, and stop BSing about those hip scores.
    We went back and forth “yes my dogs are hip scored”, “no they’re not” a few times until finally poster produced a “certificate” with pertinent information blocked out.

    I laughed (I’ll explain why in a minute), but then I got to thinking how easy it would be to dupe someone who didn’t know.

    So, let’s back up for a second. The reason breeders pay organizations like Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) and PennHip and the UK organizations for specialized testing for genetic disease is not just to be able to sell a dog who has been “health tested”.
    The reason for these organizations is to have a database where people interested in studying genetic conditions and disease have an accurate collection of data along with the pedigree information to study and in turn potentially find markers for disease and cures.

    It’s not about one dog, it’s about having accurate data on multiple dogs through generations.

    There is absolutely no reason why a responsible, ethical breeder would not want to give out their dog’s OFA number so that a potential buyer could put that number in the OFA search and look at that dog’s health tests and health tests of the pedigree behind the dog. None. Unless of course the breeder is lying.

    Health certificates are pretty darned easy to fake. What isn’t so easy to fake is the information on the public databases.
    So if a breeder says “oh yes the dam and sire were health tested and both had excellent hips” but they don’t have the certificate right now, or they lost the information or whatever, they’re lying.
    All you need is the dog’s OFA number and that information is right there for anyone to see on the OFA database.
    Forgot the OFA number? No problem, you can search by the dog’s birthdate, breed, tests you’re looking at, date of test, name of dog, all sorts of criteria. You can make the search as broad or as narrow as you like. And yes, they also list mixed breed dogs.
    http://www.offa.org/search.html?action=new
    There is a similar database on CHIC
    http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/search.html

    Here is the KC Health Test Finder
    http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/test/

    More and more unscrupulous breeders are trying to fake health tests, which I choose to see as a good thing because at least the health test info is getting out and more and more people are asking for them.
    Now we need to educate buyers on confirming that those health tests are indeed real and valid.

    Again, a good breeder should have absolutely no issue producing evidence of health testing listed on a public database.

    Oh, that “certificate” that made me laugh?
    It was a score of excellent for a 10 month old bitch.
    10 month olds don’t get hip scores. They get preliminaries, and it will say preliminary on the certificate.
    Preliminary certificates are also white in a portrait orientation. Final scores are on a blue certificate in landscape orientation. This certificate was blue in a landscape orientation. Not even a good fake.

    However, just to be sure, I searched for a bitch of that breed born in that month. No prelims on record (and a score of excellent automatically gets put on record).
    I also sent a quick message to a friend who just had preliminaries done on her male. Nope, it’s a printout, not a certificate for prelims...

    If buyers don’t know to verify information via the available databases or have someone they trust to check information with, how easy is it for them to get duped by a fake certificate?
     
    #1 ouesi, Sep 10, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 10, 2016
  2. kittih

    kittih PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2014
    Messages:
    4,534
    Likes Received:
    6,371
    That's really useful information @ouesi

    Perhaps if someone can add the other info you mentioned it would be good to have in a sticky ?
     
    MiffyMoo, ouesi and simplysardonic like this.
  3. Moobli

    Moobli PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2012
    Messages:
    3,903
    Likes Received:
    3,835
  4. ouesi

    ouesi Guest

    Yes with @Moobli info added I’d love to see this be a sticky.
    @lymorelynn pretty please?
     
    MiffyMoo likes this.
  5. simplysardonic

    simplysardonic Commander of a tiny, furry army
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2009
    Messages:
    27,104
    Likes Received:
    11,096
    Great post @ouesi, shame the rep button is no more!

    I second this being made into a sticky.
     
    ouesi likes this.
  6. ouesi

    ouesi Guest

    And for comparison, a prelim looks like this:
    (edit to use an example photo instead)

    [​IMG]
     
    #6 ouesi, Sep 10, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 10, 2016
  7. ouesi

    ouesi Guest

    Moobli likes this.
  8. MiffyMoo

    MiffyMoo PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2015
    Messages:
    9,755
    Likes Received:
    15,943
    This is an excellent post and really does need to be a sticky. I have never bought from a breeder, but knew all about health testing; however I didn't know any of this
     
    ouesi likes this.
  9. Siskin

    Siskin Look into my eyes....

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2012
    Messages:
    11,151
    Likes Received:
    14,555
    Doesn't it just drive you up the wall.
    I like to think and hope that we are able to educate people who are wanting to buy a puppy on how to avoid puppy farms. So we advise puppy viewers to see pups with the mum. Then the puppy farms bring in a stooge dog and pretend it's the mum. I guess the only way to get round that one is to actually see the bitch feed the puppies, but by 8 weeks, bitches very rarely let their sharp toothed pups anywhere near their teats.

    Then we say make sure the sire and dam have been health tested and ask to to see the certificates and now those are being forged.
    At least the KC and other organisations have the data base which can be checked to see if those certificates are what they say they are. But could the data base be hacked?:eek:
     
  10. Jezavix

    Jezavix PetForums Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2013
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    220
    Agree this should be a sticky, very useful information!
    Thank you for sharing.
     
    ouesi likes this.
  11. Siskin

    Siskin Look into my eyes....

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2012
    Messages:
    11,151
    Likes Received:
    14,555
    Also agree that this should be made a sticky before the thread decends into the forums depths never to be seen again
     
    #11 Siskin, Sep 10, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 10, 2016
    Pappychi and ouesi like this.
  12. ouesi

    ouesi Guest

    Well, part of me is happy that unscrupulous breeders are doing things like bringing in a stooge dam and faking health tests because it means buyers are demanding it, which means education efforts are working.

    Now we just need to educate how health testing databases work.

    As for the database being hacked, sure, anything can get hacked if you’re willing to put in the time and effort and are smart enough to do it. I’m not worried about dumbasses who can’t even figure out how to fake the right format for a prelim hacking in to a secure database any time soon though :D
     
    Siskin likes this.
  13. Ceiling Kitty

    Ceiling Kitty Not available for comment

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2010
    Messages:
    12,128
    Likes Received:
    17,855
    Good info, thanks!

    In the UK, dogs scored using the KC/BVA scheme must be at least twelve months old and the certificate looks like this (sourced from Google):

    [​IMG]
     
    Dogloverlou, Moobli, MiffyMoo and 2 others like this.
  14. Moobli

    Moobli PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2012
    Messages:
    3,903
    Likes Received:
    3,835

    And the KC Elbow Dysplasia form is GOLD.
     
    Ceiling Kitty and MiffyMoo like this.
  15. Blitz

    Blitz PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2009
    Messages:
    14,918
    Likes Received:
    7,629
    It is not uncommon to swap KC registration so you might be looking at a totally different bitch and the original bitch might have been tested.
     
    MiffyMoo likes this.
  16. Siskin

    Siskin Look into my eyes....

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2012
    Messages:
    11,151
    Likes Received:
    14,555
    Of course you are relying on the honesty of the breeders that bitch A was actually mated to dog B especially if they own both dogs.
     
    MiffyMoo likes this.
  17. lymorelynn

    lymorelynn UN Peacekeeper in training
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2008
    Messages:
    32,524
    Likes Received:
    22,617
    Please note that I am allowing this as a sticky only if it remains impartial. I understood this to be a thread about the relevant information required for understanding the health testing of pedigree dogs. It is not about 'having a go' at one member in particular. I have edited it accordingly.
     
    Blitz and MiffyMoo like this.
  18. ouesi

    ouesi Guest

    Not just pedigree dogs, pedigree and mixed breeds. Both can (and should) be health tested before breeding, and databases list mixed breeds too.

    So if a breeder is saying their dog isn’t listed on a public data base because they’re not a purebred, don’t fall for it.
     
    Beth-and-co, lymorelynn and Moobli like this.
  19. Burrowzig

    Burrowzig PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2009
    Messages:
    15,328
    Likes Received:
    6,968
    That's a good reason to invest in a microchip scanner (£50ish, or borrow one) before looking for a breeder. Then you can check the number on the certificate to the number on the actual dog. If the breeder is a good one, they should know what goes on and understand. If they get shirty, they could have something to hide.

    Another thing is to check that the pup's mother is the bitch you're being shown. We're all used to being told to see the pups with their mother, but puppy farm outlets may use any old bitch of the same breed. A bitch should still have saggy boobs from feeding the litter, and interact with the pups in a friendly way.
     
    ouesi likes this.
  20. Darren Cooper

    Darren Cooper PetForums Newbie

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2016
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice