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How to teach a dog to lie down calmly

Discussion in 'Dog Tricks and Games' started by CavalierLotta, Mar 29, 2017.


  1. CavalierLotta

    CavalierLotta PetForums Junior

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    Hello everyone!
    My client thought that we would create a new thread for this topic. We cannot link it, but in another thread someone suggested this Kikopup's video for acting silly: Capturing Calmness- how to train calmness in dogs- dog training

    The dog in that video knows that she has to do something in order to get treats. Lotta doesn't understand it. When my client gives her treats, she does this. She may also get up:
    [​IMG]

    In Kikopup's video it's done without a clicker, whereas in this video it's done with it:
    Shaping session for a "head down" behavior. By the user Casey Heyen

    In that video, the dog knows what he is supposed to do. He puts his head down because she clicks every time he does it. Should my client use a clicker even though she was told earlier that she shouldn't use it? She thinks that Lotta wouldn't otherwise know that she is supposed to do something.

    She has another question regarding this topic: How long should she do this before trying to teach Lotta something else?

    Thank you in advance!
     
  2. CavalierLotta

    CavalierLotta PetForums Junior

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    Here's the Kikopup video we were talking about:


    We told that it didn't work when my client tried that without a clicker. Here's the other video we were talking about:


    That user has also this video:


    She uses a clicker in both of them. Could you answer my client's questions now that we finally were able to link those videos?
     
  3. ouesi

    ouesi Guest

    Well, the whole point of capturing calmness is that the dog does not have to do anything. So the dog is rewarded for NOT doing something.
    Initially, yes the dog will become attentive and may even get up and see if they can get more treats. You just ignore that.

    We do a lot of capturing calmness in our house at random times when the dogs are not expecting it. If they're looking at you expectantly, don't feed. You have to do it when they're truly calm, and not expecting or trying to do anything for a treat.
     
    Lurcherlad likes this.
  4. CavalierLotta

    CavalierLotta PetForums Junior

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    My client's problem is that she would have to wait forever until Lotta would calm down again. Lotta thinks that my client feeds her just for fun. She doesn't understand that she is being rewarded for lying down. The question was, should my client use a clicker anyway? She thinks that if she doesn't use a clicker, Lotta would need to guess that she should do something.
     
  5. ouesi

    ouesi Guest

    Depends if you want actual calmness or if you want a dog who is doing all the calm behaviors but isn't actually calm.
    Sure, you can use a clicker, but the clicker by definition ends a behavior. When I capture calmness, the end goal is for the dog to remain calm. A clicker would interfere with that goal.
     
  6. Sarah1983

    Sarah1983 PetForums VIP

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    Personally I found using a clicker meant my dog never truly relaxed, he remained in work mode even once he understood that he was to stay lying on his mat. Which isn't awful, I can take him to the pub and he'll happily lie there with the odd treat sent his way now and then but I'd have preferred him to be truly relaxed rather than working the entire time.
     
    ouesi likes this.
  7. CavalierLotta

    CavalierLotta PetForums Junior

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    Hi,
    we haven't been able to reply earlier because we have had problems with uploading videos.
    You said that a click would end a behaviour, but my client has seen this article: http://deesdogs.com/documents/does_click_end_behavior.pdf

    This is a different behaviour, but in this video the trainer clicks and treats several times in a row, while the dog stays in a certain place:


    In this video my client is doing what has been suggested without a clicker:


    When my client gave Lotta a treat, she stood up and after that she did everything but lying down. So, my client thought that she should teach her that behaviour with a clicker. Then Lotta would probably learn to stay lying down and later offer that behaviour without my client having to ask her to do it.

    In this video, she is doing that with a clicker. This is the second time my client is doing that with a clicker:


    My client thought she would tell what she is doing and what her plan is. Lotta often stares at her, like in this picture: WP_20170425_10_46_35_Pro.2.png

    So, in the second video my client clicks always when Lotta looks away from her, or lies down. My client thought she would click later only when Lotta would look down.

    What are your thoughts on this? Any ideas? :)
     
  8. Nonnie

    Nonnie PetForums VIP

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    Ive only flicked through your videos, but i cant see how Lotta knows what you want her to do, which is perhaps why she is whining.

    If she isnt naturally choosing to lie down, then lure her into the position, click then treat. Then you can introduce the command word. Right now you seem more to be training her to look at the floor, which i cant fathom why when its a down you want.

    Shes clearly an attentive little dog, who is more than willing to work. I think she is just a little confused as to what exactly is expected of her.

    You simply mark the behaviour you want.
     
  9. ouesi

    ouesi Guest

    Okay, in the first video Emily Larlham is not capturing calmness. She is teaching a cued behavior. In this case a wait. The reason she is clicking repeatedly is that she is reinforcing the position. The dog learns that this position - standing there not moving is what earns the reward.
    This is a dog in *working* mode. He is actively thinking, figuring out what earns the reward. This is not calmness. This is a dog being active (even if he is being rewarded for not moving, it's still an "active" behavior being taught).

    Calmness is not an active behavior. Did you watch the video on capturing calmness in full? Because Ms. Larlham clearly explains in that video why you don't use a clicker, and that the point is to surprise the dog with a reward while being calm.

    In the first video of Lotta, she is rewarded while actively looking at the handler. That's not calmness. You can absolutely reward her for laying down, and reinforce that position with multiple clicks, but you are rewarding the position, not the calmness.

    So again, I'll ask what I did previously. Do you want to reward the position - laying down, or do you want to reward the mental state of being calm? If it's the latter, then you can't work the dog in working mode.
     
    Torin., kittih and StormyThai like this.
  10. CavalierLotta

    CavalierLotta PetForums Junior

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    Hi,

    and thank you for your replies!

    In our post, the Kikopup video and the article were a response to the bolded part in your previous post. My client asked me to write that it's a different behaviour.
    My client's issue is that if she does it without a clicker, Lotta doesn't know that she is supposed to do something. The first video was about her getting up when my client gives her treats. She should teach Lotta to stay lying down. Besides, Lotta often looks at my client also when she's lying down calmly, like in this video:


    Even if the behaviour was taught using a clicker, how do you know that this wouldn't eventually happen:


    This is about the second video. My client knows that there are three ways to get a behaviour: luring, shaping and capturing. She didn't use luring, because it's a different behaviour than this:


    So, my client is not teaching that to Lotta. In her video Lotta whines only once because she wants treats. She later found a tutorial about what she was doing:


    in that tutorial, the trainer is using free shaping. My client had figured it out herself before she had even seen that tutorial.
     
  11. ouesi

    ouesi Guest

    I guess I'm still very confused about what your client wants to teach the dog.
    Does she want to teach Lotta to lie down when cued, or does she want to reward Lotta when she is being calm and quiet in the hopes of that behavior becoming more frequent?
     
  12. CavalierLotta

    CavalierLotta PetForums Junior

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    Hey,
    my client wants to teach her to lie down calmly, first using a clicker, but hoping that she would eventually learn to stay lying down also when she is not using a clicker. :D

    It has been difficult for my client to explain what she wants to do.. That's why it may have appeared unclear.
     
  13. ouesi

    ouesi Guest

    Okay, but does your client want to teach the dog to lie down calmly as a default behavior, or when cued to do so?
    You can teach both, that's not the issue, I'm just trying to figure out the desired outcome.
    Also, why does your client want to use a clicker? All behaviors taught with a clicker will eventually not need a clicker...
     
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