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How common are puppies from slip matings

Discussion in 'Dog Breeding' started by swarthy, Apr 25, 2011.


  1. swarthy

    swarthy PetForums VIP

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    Blimey - I never thought I would be asking this question and feel a bit of a numpty - but hey ho here goes!!

    Before I start - BOTH parents have excellent hipscores and perfect elbows, both hold current clear eye certificates and both are DNA test for PRA Optigen and CNM.

    They are BOTH KC registered, with temperaments to die for, and have both held their own in the showring - both dogs are 2.5 years old and would be a first litter for both of them; they are a good match both physically and on paper and will be a 4th generation linebreed to a single dog with the remainder outcrossed and a 5 generation COI of less than 1%.

    ==================================

    Bringing the dogs together was intentional - we didn't pre-mate test as advised by others as we wanted to test out the boy's 'instincts' as much as anything and bless him, in that respect he was spot on.

    We had a very quick slip mating on the Saturday, and another on the Sunday and were intending to try again on the Monday; unfortunately, I was rushed into hospital very seriously ill overnight on the Sunday - and TBH - was in so much of a drug and pain fueled haze for a few days it went completely out of my mind.

    I was pretty certain there is no way on this earth she would have caught - BUT - since I got home as I've got back on my feet, I've noticed she is refusing point blank to play with my youngest girl (their play was very rough) and this is exactly how her own mother was from the day she got home from mating.

    She's quite small and her rib-cage definitely seems to be deepening - although it is only 3 weeks and 2 days from the first slip mating.

    In truth, I don't mind whether she has caught or not this time, she is young enough to try again - but there are certain elements of her behaviour that make me suspect she just might have.

    So - how common is it that two slip matings produce babies - and is there a high chance the litter is going to be smal?

    Obviously - if she continues the way she is, I will be getting her scanned and watching her like a hawk / implementing diet changes etc - it's not going to make much difference if she turns out not to be -

    I am not worried in the least if she is, or isn't pregnant, I guess I am more concerned with what steps I need to take if we only have one or two babies in there - could we be looking at a definite C-section?

    Will a vets scan pick up if there is only a couple of babies in there or should I be looking for a sheep scanner?
     
    #1 swarthy, Apr 25, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2011
  2. Stellabella

    Stellabella PetForums Senior

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    First - I hope you are all recovered from your illness :) Nothing like a hospital stay to wipe all other thoughts from your mind!

    I can't say about telling the number of pups, as Stella turned out not to have caught last time, but I have to say I was very impressed by the quality of the scan at Gower Vets. I can't imagine not being able to see the number of pups as the detail on the other internal structures was incredible. They also do pictures and a dvd if you are so inclined! :D

    Of course, I have nothing to compare it with, but hope it's a help!

    Good luck!
     
  3. swarthy

    swarthy PetForums VIP

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    Thanks - tell me about it - I am slowly 'getting there' in terms of my health, this is the first week I've been out and about properly, but it was my OH's 50th this weekend, and the way I am feeling today suggests I may have overdone things a little :(

    Oooh OK thanks - definitely something to bear in mind, they are not far from me, and I know I've heard previously they are a very good vets :D my own vets scanner is OK - but not particularly clear :rolleyes: Sorry to hear your girl didn't catch :(

    My common sense is telling me there is no way she could have caught - but the subtle signs are suggesting to the contrary going on her mothers behaviour :rolleyes:

    In the past, I've used scans simply to confirm pregnancy, deep down already knowing they are pregnant - but this time I am teeny bit more concerned because if she has caught, I would personally be leaning towards a very small litter which of course brings the risk of added complexities both in terms of whelping and of course, potentially raising a singleton.
     
    #3 swarthy, Apr 25, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2011
  4. Ridgielover

    Ridgielover PetForums Senior

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    I'd say that puppies from slip matings are fairly common. I've visited litters of decent sizes from slip matings.
     
  5. Tanya1989

    Tanya1989 PetForums VIP

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    TBH its not that common (having said that, if it was an unintentional mating its guaranteed to produce pups :rolleyes: ) but things sound promising.

    Its different for each stud and the speed at which he ejaculates, after all the only reason the third fraction is needed, is to push the second (important) fraction through the cervix (which opens and closes during a tie- and is basically a bitch orgasm- though I seriously doubt it is a pleasurable experience due to the amount of squealing that takes place ;) )

    In my experience, if the slip was enough to produce puppies, its highly unlikely that the size of the litter will be effected. It is an "all or nothing" type scenario, bearing in mind that it takes approximately 500mil sperm to fertilize for a litter, obviously meaning that 499,999,980 sperm are unsuccessful anyway.

    The average lab, I would imagine (looking at size) would probably produce 1.3bill sperm in 5cm cube of second fraction, so in theory, only 2cm cubed would need to pass through for a normal mating.

    Basically, if the bitch attempted to hold onto him but he was too small, or her not tight enough, she would have still opened her cervix.



    If it happens again, manual stimulation of her vaginal tract will encourage her to open (pulsate) her cervix.
     
  6. dexter

    dexter PetForums VIP

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    Swarthy take it easy!!!

    i've only had one bitch who had 2 slip matings to a dog and sadly i never got any pups, bit of a bummer as he was going back to France 5 days later and i got charged £200 for stud fee.
     
  7. swarthy

    swarthy PetForums VIP

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    I'm doing my best Dexter ;)

    Sorry to hear your girl didn't take - I can't imagine how frustrating that must be particularly if the dog is going back overseas :( - at least on this occasion, the boy is in my home so there's nothing lost (apart from an increasingly disgruntled waiting list :eek:) and there is always next time.

    Thanks everyone - mmmmm - so it looks like we could be in for some sleepless nights then - better go and rescue the bags of newspapers I've just put in for recycling 'sharpish' - just in case :eek:

    Even my OH was saying today she looks broader in the chest - but for me, it's the definite lack of refusal to 'play rough' with her niece which got me wondering - as normally they are literally 'joined at the hip' or she is standing guard while the pest gets up to mischief :lol:

    Now she simply won't go out with her and on the rare occasions when I came home from hospital and got her to go out (at that point pre-hospital events were pretty far from my mind) - she wouldn't play - just stood on the doorstep - which eventually penetrated my then still foggy brain :eek:

    She's a very affectionate cuddle dog anyway so not noticed any major differences there.

    ==========================

    Stellabella - I will definitely give Gower vets a call - I am assuming they will accept non-customers for scans etc?
     
  8. Blondie

    Blondie PetForums VIP

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    Cleo's first litter was from a slip mating and produced her biggest litter - 9!!:eek:

    Good luck and hope all goes well! :)
     
  9. dexter

    dexter PetForums VIP

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    what date would she be due?
     
  10. dexter

    dexter PetForums VIP

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    we can't get a sheep scanner to scan our bitch , how reliable are vets?
     
  11. Stellabella

    Stellabella PetForums Senior

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    ==========================

    Stellabella - I will definitely give Gower vets a call - I am assuming they will accept non-customers for scans etc?[/QUOTE]

    They were brilliant with me - as a 'non-customer', they ordered the CHv in for me on the strength of a phone call! So I doubt booking a scan would be a problem :D
    I am a confirmed customer now...they were also brilliant when I had to have my 17 yr old cat PTS earlier this year. Can't see me going anywhere else now. I'll be calling them this week to give Stella the once over before she comes into season again. Depends on things here at home but am hoping for a repeat mating next month or so.
     
  12. swarthy

    swarthy PetForums VIP

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    They were brilliant with me - as a 'non-customer', they ordered the CHv in for me on the strength of a phone call! So I doubt booking a scan would be a problem :D
    I am a confirmed customer now...they were also brilliant when I had to have my 17 yr old cat PTS earlier this year. Can't see me going anywhere else now. I'll be calling them this week to give Stella the once over before she comes into season again. Depends on things here at home but am hoping for a repeat mating next month or so.[/QUOTE]


    Good luck - fingers crossed for this time :D

    As I said - I have heard really positive things about them - will give them a call in the week ;) who knows? I might end up changing as well - although I get the routine stuff done in a local satellite centre, I still have to go into Sketty for anything major anyway (including scans) :rolleyes:
     
  13. Afinmore

    Afinmore PetForums Junior

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    I've known loads of litters from slip matings Sue, and tbh if she's changing shape now I wouldn't worry about a small litter unless she stops growing at some point.

    Some bitches never tie, and equally i have heard of dogs who never tie yet never miss a bitch. Inexperienced dogs often take a little while to get the hang of the 'waiting before turning' bit which helps the tie along; doesn't mean to say they're not producing the goods though ;)

    If I were you I would assume she's in whelp. Semen lasts for up to 7 days, and it's better to be catching fresh eggs than chasing the last of them... ;)
     
  14. Afinmore

    Afinmore PetForums Junior

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    Oh, and just in case you do have one or two puppies in there (unlikely really, but you never know!) I personally would only ever allow the bitch to go 48 hours from FIRST mating UNLESS there is a damn good reason why (eg previously had litters and always over due date!). My vet and various people I know who have had singleton litters all agreed...
     
  15. Devil-Dogz

    Devil-Dogz PetForums VIP

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    I have heard of people who have had females go on to have a healthy sized litter from a single slip mating. Keeping fingers crossed that your wee one has taken.
    Most people advise sheep scanners, and sheep scanners has always got numbers correct for us - but we have used a vet scanner and it was an amazing experience, first time seeing it, he confirmed pregnancy he said 5 pups, maybe 6 she had 8 - 4 were dead, one we got round (our keeper Star!) :)

    Good luck
     
  16. Stellabella

    Stellabella PetForums Senior

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    I took Stella for her first scan on 23rd Dec after mating on 27/29 Nov, so that's 3 weeks 5 days and the scan was clearly negative. It felt very early but the vet was confident that they would have seen if she was in whelp. So I don't think you should need to wait too long to find out!

    After allowing for all semen viability and late ovulation possibilities, (with a large dose of Christmas spirit and wishful thinking) I talked myself into a 2nd scan on Jan 4th. Obviously you can't find something that isn't there but I wanted to be 100% sure, and as she did have a mild phantom I was glad I'd reassured myself!
     
  17. swarthy

    swarthy PetForums VIP

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    I seldom scan before 4.5 weeks - so will probably leave it another week - as I said one side of me is saying no, but 'little' things are saying yes :rolleyes:

    She's 'playing' me the little madam - she was an 11 month bitch and then went 6 months between seasons throwing everything into disarray - and then my emergency hospital admission threw everything into even bigger disarray :rolleyes: :eek:

    Thanks for your input Fiona - I know a few other Lab people have said very similar now - so am going to do everything as if she 'is' pregnant to be on the safe side - no harm done if she isn't :D

    TBH - I would no doubt be onto the vets if she isn't gone by the due date - her mother was bang on 63 days from the first mating both times
     
    #17 swarthy, Apr 25, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2011
  18. Taylorbaby

    Taylorbaby PetForums VIP

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    blimey how excited and complicated! am very excited to see if she is in pup! :) :)
     
  19. dexter

    dexter PetForums VIP

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    thanks, i refer a sheep scanner, but can't find way Southampton way , maybe we'll try Val at Haywards Heath,

    Fingers crossed for you Swarthy too.
     
  20. swarthy

    swarthy PetForums VIP

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    Thanks Dexter - I am unaware of any sheep scanners down this way - but there must be one somewhere and will travel if I have to - knowing exactly what to expect if my baby is in whelp is too important, particularly if does happen to be a small litter.

    Failing that. the vets StellaBella has recommended sound like an excellent fallback as I know through experience that my own vets scanner is not brilliant.
     
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