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Help with a nipping pup

Discussion in 'Dog Training and Behaviour' started by Cloudy Star, Jun 13, 2009.


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  1. Doglistener1

    Doglistener1 PetForums Junior

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    Ahhhhhhhhh thank you! Someone that actually understands that you cannot and should never reward behaviour that is negative. I am absolutely frustrated with those that believe that you should ignore bad behaviour and only encourage good. That is not how mammals or any animals learns.

    Please study human psychology first before progressing to animal psychology and hopefully you will (without being anthropomorphic) understand what requires to be done. Rainybow you are my hero!
     
  2. RAINYBOW

    RAINYBOW PetForums VIP

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    Thanks :)

    I do tend to view Oscar like the kids (whilst acknowledging he is a DOG ;)) Clear Instructions and firm boundaries and a good healthy dose of Love and Affection ;) ,
     
  3. Doglistener1

    Doglistener1 PetForums Junior

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    WHAT!

    I have created "OFF" as a reprimand in my previous posts I have explained this in full. I presume you mean word rather than work?

    I am sorry I cannot explain more succinctly either you are trying not to understand or you really have no idea what I am saying?
     
  4. tripod

    tripod PetForums VIP

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    But understanding and giving distance ie not allowing it to escalate is rewarding - you reward appropriate behaviour with appropriate behaviour :confused: And as it turns out in your case it was reinforcing :D
     
    #164 tripod, Aug 5, 2010
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2010
  5. RAINYBOW

    RAINYBOW PetForums VIP

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    I never said i gave distance when i spotted his behaviour. For example he would guard the bin in the kitchen, to anyone else he would look like he was just lying by the bin but i learned the subtle signals that told me he was guarding, no growls no snaps (which is really the unwanted behaviour) just his body language. I would spot it straight away and distract by asking for a sit then making him come to me or some other command, or i would verbally interupt once i was sure he knew that guarding was wrong with a "uh uh", this didn't need to be harsh he knew i knew and he would choose to move. No rewards in there :confused:.

    He was only ever Timed Out if he growled or worse because IMO the "punishment" should fit the crime :)
     
  6. tripod

    tripod PetForums VIP

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    oh I get ya :) This indeed was obviously reinforcing as the desired behaviour increased or perhaps punishing as the undesired behaviour decreased.

    There are a couple of ways that this can be viewed as rewarding: first you distracted him from his gaurding which relieves pressure and/or second cues such as sit or whatever can be rewarding after time as they are so linked with actual primary reinforcers (such as treats etc.).

    Rewards are not just food or other things that are believed to be pleasant - this is of course speculation we can't ask the dog, as smart as Oscar is ;)

    This is a dog-geek discussion so i will leave it for now but analysing a scenario to work out which bits are reinforcing behaviour is very important.
    You know Rainybow that I am not a fan of 'time-outs' (which is known as P-) or other aversives for growling or such but relief from the situation is rewarding (and can be reinforcing) and as such with some guarders this can be quite effective (and also with other issues).
    As such and as you have stated that this is a highly individual instance and I would never recommend this approach especially not on a forum or the likes but I am glad that you and Oscar are better off for it :) although we may discuss the ins and outs ;)
     
    RAINYBOW likes this.
  7. RAINYBOW

    RAINYBOW PetForums VIP

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    All i can say in our instance (and i always try to make that clear) is when the unwanted behaviour was ignored it escalated to such a serious degree that had Oscar belonged to someone else he may well have been PTS, once i had got a handle on the unwanted behaviour it was resolved :)

    The point i am making in relation to this thread (back on track :)) is really with regards Rage Syndrome and its misdiagnosis. The behaviour that Oscar displayed when his resource guarding was at its peak could very very easily have been interpretted as Rage Syndrome when infact it was a relitively resolvable case of R Guarding. Had i taken him to the Vets and described the circumstances of his "attack" on my son (it was a "seeing off" but could have been seen as an attack) then there are still many many vets who would have diagnosed Rage and recommended him being PTS. Not very many people with their first dog who had just bitten their child in an unexplained and seemingly unprovoked attack would have disagreed with the vet and a beautiful, loyal and totally trainable pup would have been PTS ;) Oscars shows absolutely ZERO sign of RG now :thumbup:
     
  8. Doglistener1

    Doglistener1 PetForums Junior

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    tripod!

    You are making it far to complex and you are confusing what is a simple issue.

    1. Do not praise bad behaviour

    2. Do not support or ignore bad behaviour

    3. Reward good behaviour, but if you slavishly do this remember the dog will become blaise and the behaviour will become non-rewarding if you over compensate.

    4. There are four elements to operant conditioning. To cherry pick the ones that suits your beliefs is both incorrect and negative to the training of any mammal. That includes dogs and humans.

    5. Educational diktat is useless if not coupled with hands on practical experience.

    6. There is no short cut to experience. Ability both practical and theoretical is learned over a period of time, not granted as an academic licence through colleges or universities.

    7. Aversives are a part of training and behaviour. A lead for instance is a an aversive.

    8. Positive only training is a contradiction in terms. The majority of (scientists that eschew this) generally are working from a lack of practical knowledge and a misunderstanding of how mammals learn.

    I sometimes despair when I listen to the theorists that spout information that is gleaned from theory rather than practical experience. They will quote dictats using pluses and minuses without the understanding what these pluses and minuses mean.

    I find that the one that know the least will use technical jargon to confuse and defuse a logical answers to a question. People do nor explain to the general public what to do. They talk about primary reinforcers, then secondary reinforcers we use + and - we talk about and I quote" But understanding and giving distance ie not allowing it to escalate is rewarding"

    This is a forum not a university. explain what you mean do not use jargon and techno words and answers, let the general public understand what you are saying. I promise you the people that use this type of jargon do not impress me and secondly the general public just switch OFF.

    Read any of my dozens of articles you will not see any jargon, no pluses and no minuses just the bare facts. That is why all my articles are in the very top of google searches. Have a look at this. Stan Rawlinson (Doglistener) amazing results in Google Rankings as a Dog Behaviourist Trainer
     
    #168 Doglistener1, Aug 5, 2010
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2010
    1 person likes this.
  9. tripod

    tripod PetForums VIP

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    Stan if you can't keep up you don't have to be part of it ;) This was never directed at the simpletons you speak of but a specific discussion with a specific person on a specific issue - each of whom stated that we had moved on. Take the hint and move on too :D
     
  10. tripod

    tripod PetForums VIP

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    A couple of excellent video clips looking at resolving puppy biting and teaching the pup what to do :) this is the way to go!

    YouTube - ‪How to Teach Your Puppy to Stop Nipping Using Clicker Training‬‎
    YouTube - ‪Stop puppies biting- clicker dog training‬‎
    YouTube - ‪How to stop leash biting- clicker dog training‬‎

    Just remember to work on inhibiting the force of bites first before getting rid of biting altogether - this is the most important lesson to teach puppy :)
     
  11. leashedForLife

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    yup! :thumbup: and U only have a small window in which to teach it, too...

    on a related topic, does anyone have a dog with the 'wrist-gene', LOL? for lack of a better term -
    when the dog has something to show U, wants something, needs water, whatever, they loosely grasp
    a human wrist with canines + incisors on the outside of the jaw-clasp, and draw the person to the area -
    the lost kitten, the leaking tub, the empty bowl, and so forth.

    i know of 4 breeds where this is a well-known and often *maternal line* heritable trait -
    mum to daughter, to daughter, etc: GSDs, Scottish Deerhounds, BCs, and Rhodies.

    does anyone have a dog who LEADS humans by the wrist, with a light jaw-clasp?
    if U do, what breed or sex is the dog?


    the wrist-gene is a very useful and IMO endearing trait - i have had GSDs who loved to do this, and i loved having
    the dog show me _____ - ya never knew what i might be! i would hate to see the wrist-gene suppressed entirely
    by absolute no-contact with teeth.

    i have also been the proud + happy recipient of nibble-grooming when i had burrs or stick=-tights - more than once,
    while i cussed under my breath + picked wotsits off my pantslegs + sox, my dog would lend a helpful mouth. :) the task goes faster with help!

    JMO + IME,
    - terry
     
  12. sue&harvey

    sue&harvey PetForums VIP

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    That does sound really quite sweet, Harvey sadly is not that subtle, generally it's a kick of the bowl, a bark or a whine, or a nose up the behind. :rolleyes: Now nibble grooming is a harvey speciality, if you need your ears cleaned, or hair brushing, then he is your man.
    He is really gentle too :) (Although a wet tongue in the ear really sends shivers down the spine :lol: )
     
  13. RobD-BCactive

    RobD-BCactive PetForums VIP

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    Before I respond to the postive criticism, which I am (due to foreign travel) slow to reply to.

    Let me say, that I think beginning Basic Obedience Training with positive rewards, has not received enough emphasis in this thread. It gives the less confident a sense of control, and a way to manage the dog's excitement levels. Let's face it, most ppl coming into contact with a new puppy, are not expert dog handlers, but learning as they go. From what I have seen, people are leaving training to later, and missing an opportunity, whilst the puppy is developing its personality.

    10 week old pups & younger can learn and can enjoy doing so!

    That's fine if everyone in contact with the pup does it. All I'll say is, a Border Collie pup can learn very quickly from just a couple of examples, that many people find the jump up "puppy" behaviour amusing, and actively encourage it. It is easy to control a puppy on leash, unfortunately their play on leash with other dogs tends to result in the owners doing a Morris dance to reduce entanglement.

    I expect my dog not to jump up and behave politely off leash, not just in the controlled on leash situation.

    In my experience, other Dog owners at parks, are very often the worst culprits and the least cooperative to polite requests to avoid rewarding this behaviour.

    Whilst I do agree with the thrust of what you're saying, from what I have seen at dog obedience club, most owners on the course are teaching the post-puppy young adult loose leash walking and having to combat a whole range of bad habits that the dogs have got into, through the pet owners being more relaxed about things, than an experienced dog handler would be. So they are likely to have to address some habits, not just do it right first time, which I agree is the ideal.

    Actually it referred to being put on a lead and attempting what you suggested ... *shrug*
    The reaction made this course appear to me, to be irresponsible in my judgement, though I am sure it has worked for plenty of people in the past.

    I think dogs are individuals, and I was actually quite shocked by the reactions and behaviours I saw, it was outside of my previous experience with dogs and puppies.
    I agree, but this is an anecdote thread, and most of the (non cruel) techniques suggested in this thread were tried and were back firing.

    Distraction onto a play item totally failed as the pup was too intelligent and focussed on his target.

    So there was a gradual escalation, and the success of the interruption via home made pebble shaker, allowing distraction onto play objects, with management of excitement levels via reward based obedience training, turned the situation round, and as it was the Dams first litter, and another pup was returned causing the Breeder to be anxious and to communicate with us, the consequences should we not have succeeded might have been serious.

    I am 100% sure we did the right thing, we acted sensitively and in a measured way, and after more popular recommendations in this thread failed.
    Border Collies just love working, puppy training treats with liver in proved too rich and provoked sickness, a lean mixture of treats to kibble, worked fine. Earning this meagre fair was an engrossing activity and no more enthusiasm was required.

    Whilst the young dog, is more praise motivated now than before, he is I'm afraid much more reliable when there's some of this cheap kibble with training treat sweeteners around to earn, even if it's not proffered as reward on the majority of successful completions.
     
  14. leashedForLife

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  15. hungry hector

    hungry hector PetForums Newbie

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    All puppies will explore their new world with their mouths and naturally will want to play with their mouths. Gently distract them with soft squeaky toys can help. Our PBGV, which are well known for play biting was, as he grew older gently discouraged with a water spray. This was recommended by our vet as a harmless 'stop'. It works really well when used as a final do not do this.

    Enjoy your new puppy

    All the best

    Kevin@hungryhector.co.uk
    yummy dog treats fresh from Cornwall
     
  16. leashedForLife

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    that's fine...
    that's Not fine.
    i don't care if it was recommended to U in a celestial vision at midnight during the dark of the moon,
    and the spirit-visitor left U a crystal skull as a memoriam -

    there are enormous reasons NOT to recommend any aversives, to * all dogs * or * all pups *.
    and BTW - the younger the dog, the more enormous the potential for fallout, which can be very long-lasting.

    please see this thread for an extensive discussion
    Water Spraying unwanted behaviours - Pet Forums Community
    of why aversives, punishers, interruptors and corrections can ALL have bad repercussions -
    which unfortunately are unknown until after we use that aversive, punisher, interruptor or correction.
     
  17. Jo C

    Jo C PetForums Newbie

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    Hi,
    I am new to this site but I have a 12 week old Springer pup and just wanted to let you know his biting is getting better..I agree with all the ideas suggested but also we give him Ice cubes and cold carrots to help with his teething!
    Jo
     
  18. tashi

    tashi PetForums VIP

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    At the moment with all you trainers at loggerheads with one another these posts are going nowhere and are not helpful at all to any member fgs sort yourselves out and argue the toss in pms :mad:
     
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