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Discussion in 'Dog Training and Behaviour' started by kittysoo, May 24, 2010.


  1. kittysoo

    kittysoo PetForums Member

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    Hi all

    If you look at my past posts you will see l have a few problems and have just added another one.

    I have taken a family members 5 year old GSD bitch, in as her family circumstances had changed meaning she was being left for 12 hours a day every day.

    She turns out to be a very well socialised dog but lacking in training.

    I felt we were careful with the introductions, tiring her and my other 3 out before them meeting. My lot did react and she rumbled back at them but it settled down and we all walked on quite sucessfully.

    The problem was went we took them all back home - l led her into my house and the others just behind but one dog in particular Scamper the Jack Russell just went beserk - Screaming and snapping. Then Schmoo went for her back end, Katie just kept out of it.

    Of course the horrible next door neighbor complained when my husband apologised and explained the situation, which has started off the feud over the last time when he called the Dog warden when my other GSD was alive.

    We are terrified of any noise now as he is probably noting every barking session down, even though it must be less than a minute, each time.

    I think Poppy the GSD is so sick and tired of Scamper that even when he doesn't react - she will suddenly bark at him. He is a screamer and she has got a full GSD bark. My daughter walked into the room and Poppy got all excited and that caused Scamper to have a go.

    We have taken Scamper and her for a walk together and even had them off the lead in a field. Only one time, they kicked off and that was when l called Scamper to come to me and l bent down and patted him. She must have come up behind me as he dived between my legs and had a go. She had a rumble back and they had a bit of a tussle. No blood no hanging on and it broke up on its own in a few seconds.

    Bob took Poppy and Schmoo out (on the lead all the way) and no trouble at all.

    The problem seems to be the house and garden - so territory and people.

    I am back to dog training this weekend and we intend to take Scamper and Poppy. I am also going to email one of the trainers too as we are a bit desparate and really need help.

    Also l was wondering if l could ask all of you experience dog people for any help and advice.

    Please don't tell me off though for getting her. My intentions were the best and l really want to make this work.

    PS Would you believe it that even though this dog had been brought up with a cat (it passed in the new year) - the dog is barking and lunging when it sees any of my 6 cats.

    Anyway thank you for taking the time to read this.
     
  2. goodvic2

    goodvic2 PetForums VIP

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    Hi.

    Sorry to hear u r having problems. I started off with 2 rescues and took on a third a year later. We had terrible problems, because the new addition was not neutered (done a week after we got him) and my other two
    dogs kept attacking him. We had terrible fights resulting in vet and hospital treatment and had a thoroughly miserable few months.

    It did eventually settle down, but took a lot of work.

    We did daily walks together and made sure they spent as much time together as possible, often muzzeling them. I did notice that they were so much worse when humans were around and often vied for our attention.

    I got quite tough with them and didn't fuss them as often. Eventually it did work out and they are now the best of friends.

    It could take a few months to settle down. At least they are not fighting! X
     
  3. leashedForLife

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    hey, soo! :--)

    first things first- CALMATIVES for everybody, all dogs + all cats.
    see Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - dog body-language - and why it matters so much...
    for how much, how to admin, etc. personally i would use all 3 -
    Rescue-Remedy liquid, DAP pump-spray and lavender pump-spray.

    FELIWAY for the kitties -
    and put them in a separate section of the house, with their litter boxes in one area,
    their food + water at least 8-ft + preferably 10 to 12-ft away, and a TALL baby-gate or preferably a closed DOOR
    between the dogs + the cats;

    be aware that the JRT may re-direct their frustration + arousal on the CATS,
    or react to the cats if they run, hide, spit, growl, or otherwise REACT to the strange dog -
    JRTs are notorious cat-killers, and even if this dog has lived with all 6 cats for years, i would be very,
    Very Careful - these are new circs, and high stress + arousal with JRTs is really high risk.


    keeping everybody calm - including the humans!, please don;t shout - is really helpful.
    introducing ONE cat at a time to the new dog, with that cat in a solid-walled carrier + up on a raised surface,
    will help - short happy visits, with the dog LEASHED + getting treats for LOOK * AT * THAT -
    look at the cat while sitting calmly, Immediately look at U, get a treat, look at cat, U, treat...

    kitty meanwhile is well-fortified with Feliway beforehand, and fish treats - real fish, like tuna-tidbits or salmon-shreds...
    in her crate. i have also used a chopstick with low-fat cream-cheese as a treat -
    i slide the loaded tip in thru the windows or the door, to get the cat to move slowly inside the crate.

    the dog may get NUTS when the cat moves - a solid Eye-Bolt with a tether if U are working alone,
    Tethered to Success
    if there is a second person, they can HOLD the leash - but they must be vigilant to keep the cat relaxed.

    the tether only needs to be 18-inches long; adjust the cats height + the distance between to keep the cat
    relaxed, and SLOWLY get them closer to each other - kitty in the crate, dog restrained safely.
    this takes many SHORT sessions - short + happy is far better than any marathon; 5 to 10-mins is plenty.

    happy B-Mod,
    --- terry
     
  4. kittysoo

    kittysoo PetForums Member

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    Thanks so much Goodadvice - you have made me feel this is totally worthwhile and doable, as you have had the success with your dogs. I will definatley get the muzzles.

    Also terry - l am giving the dogs rescue remedy, me sereoxat and Bob alcholol - hopefully that is the calmatives you were talking about :) The cats are keeping away most of the day but they usually do this in the summer anyway as they are off hunting and lounging about, that is why Katie never got used to the cats when we brought her home - they were never in till nightfall, then she oukd bark at them and start the others off. :mad:

    i have had to segragate my cats to all the dogs as being terriers - they were trying to chase them , so l have gates up everywhere now. I keep the dogs downstairs too.

    Anyway l am off to call the dog warden now to keep her updated as l know my neighbor is just dying to report me again.

    Please wish me luck and if you can think of anything else please let me know.

    Thank you again and l will be back with updates.
     
  5. kittysoo

    kittysoo PetForums Member

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    PS - Just rang the dog warden to find they have scrapped her. Now its just enviromental health. Anyway told her everything and told her what we are doing and they have made a note abot it all.

    Then Bob comes up the stairs and says that the next door neighbor has just apologised over the fence for over reacting as he had had a bad day!!!

    Anyway feel a lot better today so off to have lunch and continue with the dogs.

    Back soon :thumbup:
     
  6. kittysoo

    kittysoo PetForums Member

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    just an update o the situation.

    Poppy is getting a bit wilful now probably settling in a bit and thinking of taking over the place. She has really taken to Bob, and last night when little Katie Pup jumped up on Bobs knee, she did a rumble and a little snap at her. Then Schmoo went in and we had a bit of a situation.

    Scamper at this time was in the hall as they just have to look at each other and they're off. I really think Scamper is very frightened of her and its all fear aggression.

    The only thing is that Poppy is beginning to instigate the barking. I am sending my husband off to get 2 muzzles today, but that wont stop the barking of course. By the way the sleeping arrangements have changed drastically, l am having Scamper up with me and Bob is sleeping downstairs with the other 3. There has been no problems but l am very nervous about leaving them all together. i cant put her in the hall as the cats come up at night.

    I have contacted my training club and they are putting me in touch with a behavourist that they use in difficult cases and the rescues that they do. my neighbor is appeased for now but its only a matter of time, as he and his lodger are very short tempered.

    Well here we go - day 3
     
  7. Kaydees

    Kaydees PetForums Newbie

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    Hi

    Not read the full history of your dogs but got the gist from a couple of posts you have written.

    Good on you for taking the dog on - we did very similar. We have a wire haired fox terrier, yorkie x JRT and a border x parsons. Jack, our border, is who brought our problems to light.

    Although we could say that Jack is the cause of our problems with the help of a behaviourist we now also recognise that our jrt x (Ghyll) had issues we were unaware of - passive dominance - that aroused unwanted reactions from Jack.

    our two boys started fighting about 7 months ago - the fights have got less but only because we have modified our own behaviour and reactions to our dogs behaviour. I dropped the ball over the weekend and that resulted in another fight.

    The best thing we did was get soft leads and collars for all the dogs - then if trouble does kick off you have something to get hold of rather than touching the dogs themselves. Having been bitten by Ghyll it is not something I want to experience again.

    Dog training can help with set behaviour patterns and responses but if you do not get to the root of the angst these problems will not go away. Get in touch with a behaviourist - having someone from the outside can often spot things you have missed.

    I sometimes feel it would be better for everyone if we rehomed Jack - it is not pleasant for any of us - but our good days are really good and I am still optimistic that everyday will soon be a good day.

    good luck and sending you an extra portion of patience, understanding and calmness
     
  8. goodvic2

    goodvic2 PetForums VIP

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    Thats a long time for you to be experiencing problems. Are both dogs neutered out of interest?
     
  9. Kaydees

    Kaydees PetForums Newbie

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    It is not the dogs with problems it is us :)

    both dogs neutered in January

    just like people sometimes dogs do not like one another, we can't force them to get on but we can help them avoid confrontation and tolerate each other.

    I forced a confrontation when one dog was in defence mode after my neighbours dog dug yet again under our fence and tried to get into the garden.

    Before Saturday their last fight was January so not quite as bad as you seem to think :)

    Given the enviroment they currently live in many dogs would react exactly the same way ours have - and others would be quivering wrecks under a table somewhere.

    Not that I am defensive about my boys or anything ;)
     
  10. kittysoo

    kittysoo PetForums Member

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    Thanks for the comments - in a weird sort of way l feel comforted that l am not the only one with problems and also that they can be resolved.

    Leash (Terry) is going to give some advice to my problems after l emailed him a behaviourists comments to my original problem as he says others have similar problems. Thanks goodness that youre on here Terry is all l can say.

    Today - Went to the vets for Poppies check up. She is basically in good health about 45 kilos - but the vet did observe her suddenly lunge at a spaniel that came in and said that she had nervous aggression. Not suprising really as it has only been 4 days and she has had 2 dogs snarl and go for her many times a day.

    I probably should'nt have had her bathed but she was in a mess from diving in the pond. We can breathe again :D - took her out for a walk on her own to relax after. We are still using rescue remedy on the dogs and today l got DAPs collars for her and Scamper.

    I dont know if this is a good sign but Bob made all the dogs sit in front of him and treated them all a few times and no problems. Later Poppy barked at the Guinea Pigs and only then did Scamper go and bark at her. This time it was an excited bark - no snarling and his tail was up rather than between his legs and all teeth showing. he is still trying to keep out of her way but l hope its an improvement. It just seemed different.

    The vet said it' early days yet, said l should definately use a behaviourist and reaffirm our authority over all the dogs - so no more going on the sofas, make them do something before they get petted or treated.

    Anyway looking forward to Terry coming on.

    PS Terry - For the time being l have blocked Poppy's view of where the cats come down our path as they are just sitting there taunting her now. Thougt l would tackle one problem at a time but if you think l should do everything at once please let me know.
     
  11. leashedForLife

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    i had this all sitting as a draft, :lol: cuz i had to have the permit to post it...

    re the kitties, nope thats fine; having the cats practice NOT fleeing is a good thing, its step-1 anyway;
    every-time she barks + they so much as flinch, it encourages the barking.

    the draft:
    _______________________________________
    for NOT knowing U, this person makes very broad + sweeping, not to say damning, statements. :huh:
    its true insofar as it goes - but getting the energy levels lower does not HURT, and can help, especially with highly reactive breeds/types.
    but the intro is history - dealing with their behavior now is the issue.
    if there is a pos-R training-class U can afford, i would go with the GSD. she is 5-YO; yes, she has changed homes, but waiting a month or more will not help; and getting her around NON-family dogs to practice being attentive + tolerant cannot *hurt*.
    yes, some barking is inevitable; keeping it to a minimum at home, especially in the yard, is the idea - to avoid pissing-off the neighbor, and to keep the dogs calmer, too.
    so getting basic-obed on the other 3 dogs DEMONSTRATES Ur leader-skills + commitment? :p if this trainer would be the one teaching U + the dogs, it would also demo considerable financial commitment. Yes? :eek:
    well, its all Ur fault, hun... :p

    BS in my blunt opinion; yes, a firm but kind owner *might!!* have been able to have less barking, less reactivity - but face it,
    U have 3 vocal, reactive terrierists AND a vocal herding-breed who is new to the group; barking + snapping WILL happen
    unless prevented, thats just the way it is.

    U will probably make faster headway with the GSD than with shutting-off the barking from the trio;
    and the JRT is likely to be the worst.

    i would
    * find a cheap pos-R group class for the GSD -
    and if U can swing it, have hubby take the JRT to a DIFFERENT class - same instructor, different times.
    getting both of them around other dogs w/o reacting will help at home; practice of self-control always helps.

    * if the cost is an issue, ask the former-owner to buy a bottle of DAP pump-spray - see post #22 on the dog-body-lang thread for how to use it; all 4 dogs can benefit, but the GSD + JRT most of all.
    ONE spritz is a dose/surface, so the bottle lasts quite some while; remove collars, spray once, put back on dogs. lasts approx 90-mins.

    * tethers can help a lot -
    tethering both dogs at a safe distance, then working them separately on simple cues with treats, is an easy way to connect **THAT dog = Treats for me.**
    Tethered to Success
    tethers only need to be 18-inches of bike-cable for the JRT, and maybe 2-ft for the GSD, out of traffic paths; just screw an eye-bolt into the baseboard, and clip the double-ended cable to the eye, other end to the dogs collar.
    puppy-push-ups (sit, down, sit, down...), sit pretty / beg, belly-up for a rub, etc; any simple trick or behavior. if YOU are the only one training, toss treats to the AUDIENCE each time U reward the working-dog, or even every 2nd or 3rd time the working-dog gets a goody, the audience gets one.
    IGNORE initial barking from the audience; once they realize treats are in the offing, the other dog should shut up. ;)

    * make the presence of the JRT / GSD the CUE that good things are coming -
    they are walked at the same time, potty at the same time, etc. if need be, hubby handles one + U take the other, but turn-about so nobody gets over-attached. U each need to handle both dogs.

    * teach the GSD to bark ON CUE - then teach her *hush*.
    SPEAK is crisp, snappy, upbeat - *hush* is whispered, body contracted, finger to lips.
    U can do the same with the JRT - but it will take longer.

    * NILIF for everybody until further notice - SIT for every want + need.
    SIT to get the door open to exit/enter
    SIT to get the bowl to the floor
    SIT to enter/exit the car
    SIT to be petted
    SIT to get the leash on/off... SIT, SIT, SIT
    it slows things down, lets them practice self-control, and gives each dog a PRETTY-PLEASE signal for communication with the humans, too.
    ________________________________________

    i think that should get U started, soo! :D

    happy B-Mod,
    --- terry
     
  12. kittysoo

    kittysoo PetForums Member

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    Hi terry - l see you sent me an PM to say posted but l cant find it is it under a new heading somewhere?
     
  13. kittysoo

    kittysoo PetForums Member

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    PS - L am such a muppet - didn't look on page 2 DOH:eek:
     
  14. leashedForLife

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    :laugh: if U go to EDIT PROFILE (top left of every page, under -Pet Forums-)
    and then click on *subscriptions*, all Ur subscribed threads come up, with any new posts at the top of the column -
    so the thread may be from last-week, but a post 5-mins ago will bump it to the top of the que.

    U have to be subscribed to the thread / have posted to it, for this to work...
    have fun, hun. :)
     
  15. leashedForLife

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    are things any less frazzled? :)

    hoping for any minor improvement,
    -- terry
     
  16. kittysoo

    kittysoo PetForums Member

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    hello my dear

    I am pleased to say that things are looking minutely better. Yesterday we put Poppy, Schmoo and katie in the back of the car to drive to our favourite walk. I had Scamper in the front with me. I prewarned Bob that if anything started he had to slam the breaks on no matter what and get break it up.

    Luckily it didn't come to that and all 3 were fine. The walk itself went off perfectly and at one time Poppy ran after Scamper and just passed him. he did duck down but no growling.

    Later at home in the sitting room - they eyed each other up and started but l called Scamper quickly and he looked away and it fizzled out. We ar emaking them sit for everything though last night it was pitiful as the little ones could'nt understand that l would'nt let them up on the sofa :eek:(

    We are making them all wait before moving through the dog gates and Poppies WAIT is beginning to improve. I make her wait before eating which she has not done before and is slowly getting better at that. She is still a bit willful and will not always do as l ask or even come to me when l call her so l am armed with tasty bits. Now all 4 dogs can sit in front of us to get a treat and none of them try and steal the others, so they are being patient.

    Our sleeping arrangemetns are hectic. Bob sleeps down stairs on the sofa with the 3 dogs and l have the JR Scamper up with me as l am afraid that if it kicks off in the night that will really give the neighbors something to complain about. My vet said this was a bad idea and that we should leave all 4 in the loung. I cant let any of them sleep in the hall as the cats come up the stairs at night.

    i am reallymaking them work for treats now. Tomorrow l am taking Poppy and Scamper into out local town (its very small)for a walk so that they can see other dogs and people. Since we have been home with her on Sunday night she has met 2 people and no dogs other than the one in the vets as this village is so quiet. We are going to make it regular event to keep the dogs in touch with life outside of the village as that is half the terrorists problems.

    Thank you so much for the help, please keep it coming though:eek:) Have you any ideas of a regular daily routine that l could keep to for the dogs? One of the trrioble things that the previous owners did to her as a puppy was use a lazer pen on the floor so she is fixated with shadows. This makes her bark, upsetting the other dogs. Just seeing the shadow of her own ears in the sunshine trips her off. I think that has become an obsession now.

    Anyway must go ans l have to go out now xxx Mo
     
  17. leashedForLife

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    can U crate the JRT to leave him in the room beside the other 3 dogs, with a baby-gate or Dutch-door or closed door
    separating the 2 rooms? that way the cats are safe, and hubby can sleep upstairs? or crate the GSD + leave the original trio in the room beside her?

    DAP spray, Rescue-Remedy liquid, and/or botanical lavender water (spray bottle) can all help transition to sleep;
    a dose of any one or all 3 (which is perfectly safe) 30-mins before bedtime is helpful.

    as for the shadows, give her a new obsession -
    INTERRUPT every reaction to lights, glare, reflections or shadows by diverting her to something desirable.
    if she can be persuaded to play tug, get a special toy that ONLY comes out for her + humans - it is never a chew-toy,
    and she cannot trophy it + carry it off; it is just for interaction. ;)

    its progress :thumbup: keep it up, hun!
    --- terry
     
  18. leashedForLife

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    i am SO sorry - my wireless is acting very strange, this is the 2nd duplicate today -
    and i did not catch the error before i left for 6 -hours of errands. :eek: i apologize -
    i have no idea what the trouble is, something is wrong with connectivity -
    but it only happens with Pet-Forum-uk?!, so i don;t know how to fix it.

    i hope this is the *last!* one... :blush2: please if someone sees a doubled-post of mine,
    leave a visitors-message? i would really appreciate it, then i can take it off immediately.

    very puzzled and sorry for the clutter,
    --- terry
     
    #18 leashedForLife, May 28, 2010
    Last edited: May 28, 2010
  19. kittysoo

    kittysoo PetForums Member

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    You are so inspirational - will you marry me :lol:

    This evening we managed to get all 4 dogs in the back of the car coming home from our walk. I even think Poppy is showing some signs of play but the others are not quite sure. I look on that as a sign of improvement.

    Ref Sleeping. I haven't got a crate as Bob canabalised it make the rubbish dog guard we bought more secure for the little dogs as they could squeeze through the gaps.

    I do have a childs pay pen made out of metal that acts as a room divider too. it will stop Scamper getting out but he and Poppy can still have a good session barking. I think l will try it tomorrow and prewarn the neighbors. Hopefully Bob will be able to sleep upstairs again. Mind you he says l make little piggy noises every now and then and that is why he started to go downstairs in the past. Bye about 2-30pm l have the bed to myself and stretch out. He snores so loud l can hear him from the bedroom.:eek:

    I will definately try your suggestion of a special "distraction toy" for Poppy as it is definately a problem. We have been unable to take a photo of her as the moment she sees the glint of light on the camera she is off.

    Anyway going downstairs to see Lost the End and try to make sense of what happened.b If they all died - did a dying Jack dream 117 hours of misery about wierd people (the others) and a magic island that didn't exist.:confused1:
     
  20. leashedForLife

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    oh, thats so sweet... :001_wub: but i think U already are married, aren;t U? thats a complication -
    most folks frown on more than one spouse, at least at the same time. :eek: but it was lovely of U to ask! :)

    i became a dog-nun about 10-years ago - so i am single in the legal sense, but married in a spiritual sense. :blush2:
    maybe a TETHER to get Poppy out of eyesight of the JRT?
    or just give a little added distance? ===> Tethered to Success
    18-inches is plenty for the JRT - 24 should be more than enuf for the GSD, depending on who is where.
    getting 2 cables, one for her + one for him, will allow one eye-bolt to serve both dogs. ;)
    wow, that *is* bad!
    theres a relaxation protocol on this page
    What is Behavior Modification? | k9aggression.com from DVM Overall - its very detailed, and very effective.

    also one for desensitization - just substitute Poppys trigger for the one in the article, its the same process.

    completely off-topic, :lol: -
    i don;t know the first * thing! * about Lost - :p it sounds like a TV-program? maybe based on that religious
    novel series, about the *good Christians* being taken from their mortal lives, and ordinary-folks left behind?
    in any case, i hope its a peaceful evening + a quiet night. :sleep:
    its about midnight in the UK - the family is probly already asleep...


    pleasant dreams,
    --- terry
     
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