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sorry to hear about the puppys passing; rip little one.

i've just had a quick google at health tests recommended for the breed, and there doesn't seem to be one for liver- only kidneys. if it had of been the kidneys that were the issue then you could legally be held responsible for not testing for it, but liver issues don't seem common at all in th breed from the websites i checked, therefore wouldn't have been tested for.

what heath tests were done on the sire and dam?
 

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so no testing was performed even thought there are a fair few recommended for the breed?
honestly, itf it was me i would have been offering a refund rather than wait for him to demand one- remember that he will also be very out of pocket for the vet fees, and those don't come cheap.
auto-immune disease is also in your breed- and only by knowing the lines you are breeding can you know if it will crop up, and it may have contributed to the pups death.
in some lines in some countries my breed has liver shunt issues which need testing for (thankfully never ever been a problem in my lines- i asked the breeders and others in the breed) but it would normally be noticed around the time of the vaccines as the liver cannot cope with the stress of their vacc, and cant process it properly. i suppose then if FN (kidney problem) was present it would also have contributed- and it imo should have been tested for.

i dont know how he will stand in court, but you may well find yourself there :( in saying that though, he should have bought from health tested parents under contract... which may be the verdict of the case.
have you let the other puppy owners know what happened? their pups may have the same problem if it is genetic.


breeding isnt a good way to earn money, unless your a puppy mill- but i guess you're finding that out the hard and expensive way :(
 

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Thankyou for that reply and I have and they are all fine, I'll happily offer a refund, thankyou again.
glad to hear all others doing well- may be worth while telling them if they are ever getting bloods drawn to run a quick liver function test; its about £20 with my vets, but may well be worthwhile for piece of mind...
 

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Thankyou for that reply and I have and they are all fine, I'll happily offer a refund, thankyou again.
It's taken years of research and money, to make DNA tests available to prevent problems in cocker spaniels. I think you possibly may end up in a small claims court, owing for the full cost of pup, cost of tests/vets and compensation for the owners for loss of pup and court costs.....and that's just one pup!

Definitely not a quick way of making some ££'s :mad:
 

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Hi, mum is just a healthy pet who's regularly wormed and vaccinated likewise with the dad. I didn't ask lots of money for the pups as they were just pets, I told no lies I only did it to raise some money. The unfortunate owner is demanding a refund of some sort he says he can take me to court but I didn't know the pup had this problem and his vet agreed I wouldn't have known.
It may be one of those things you can't prevent. How can you put your bitch through so much for money, people say it so often on here, there is no money to be made by breeding responsibly :(.
 

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It's taken years of research and money, to make DNA tests available to prevent problems in cocker spaniels. I think you possibly may end up in a small claims court, owing for the full cost of pup, cost of tests/vets and compensation for the owners for loss of pup and court costs.....and that's just one pup!

Definitely not a quick way of making some ££'s :mad:
It may be one of those things you can't prevent. How can you put your bitch through so much for money, people say it so often on here, there is no money to be made by breeding responsibly :(.
Sadly, the op has now learned this the hard way... Possibly having to pay the puppy buyer double or more the cost of their pup or more to cover vet fees if they want reimbursed for all expenses etc. if it does go to court
 

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Hi, mum is just a healthy pet who's regularly wormed and vaccinated likewise with the dad. I didn't ask lots of money for the pups as they were just pets, I told no lies I only did it to raise some money. The unfortunate owner is demanding a refund of some sort he says he can take me to court but I didn't know the pup had this problem and his vet agreed I wouldn't have known.
I am sorry for your loss and the problems you have had. I think in your place I would have definitely offered a refund; these people may have saved for months for a puppy and not be able to afford to replace it as well as the heartache of getting close to the little creature, only to have it snatched away. But I don't know that you should be paying any vet bills if liver failure is not a normal test for the breed and none of the other pups have suffered. It is surely just one of those things.

When my Joshua was 16 months he was diagnosed with arthritis, not something to be tested for and not something any of the other littermates have had, nor the parents. I wouldn't be expecting his breeder to pay vet bills.
 

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You should not have let puppies leave without insurance.

Petplan do 4 weeks free insurance for pups when they leave. If a litter is KC registered, the Kennel Club offers 4 weeks free insurance. A puppy should always be insured when it leaves the breeder imho.

If there are no tests available to have been performed on the Sire and Dam of the pup regarding this health issue.....there was no way you could avoid the situation. However, you should have immediately offered a full refund and any expenses incurred by the new owner of the puppy (on production of a Vet report confirming what you have been told with regard to the problem the puppy was pts over). You should also cover the cost of the Vet Report imo.

If you don't know the owners well (and I'm guessing you don't if they are threatening legal proceedings) I would want to be sure that their story is on the up and up. Some people are dishonest and although you don't appear to have gone into this litter with your eyes open and your head in gear, you don't deserve to refund if the puppy were to have got ill from something environmental or something that happened in the care of the new owner.

Can I just say for anyone else that breeds purely to raise cash.......you took a very big chance. Should your bitch have needed a C Section, you would have been at least £1K down.....you could have ended up with a MASSIVE vet bill and no live pups to sell. There are far easier ways to raise cash. Creating lives, as you've now found out, is not an EASY, QUICK or TROUBLE FREE way to make money.

Morally, you are responsible for any puppies you breed and therefore, at any time, one of the owners of the pups could dump a pup back on you, with potential health issues and the problem is yours for the next.....however.....many years.

If you need to raise cash in the future.....do a boot sale, put some stuff on ebay, sell the family silver if you have to but don't breed to raise cash, it's morally wrong and could end up costing you a lot in the future;)

That said, I'm sorry that you are having such a hard time; I would be beside myself if I were you:)

RIP little puppy:(
 

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Dogs are covered under the Sale of Goods Act 1979. A puppy sold with and subsequently dying from a hereditary illness would be neither of satisfactory quality or fit for purpose under it. The owners would be able to reclaim purchase price and quite possibly vets fees if they pursue it.
 

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Hello I'm new here and would like some advise..thankyou everyone the issue has been resolved in a friendly manor
What was the liver problem was it Porto systemic shunt? Although known in the cocker spaniel, there doesnt look like there is any pre breeding tests available.

Looking on the Breed specific test requirements even for mandatory tests for KC assured breeders the only tests are the following.
1) Annual eye testing 2) DNA test - prcd-PRA
3) DNA test - FN

Reccomended further testing is for
1) Hip scoring 2) Gonioscopy

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/1100/abshealthreqs.pdf

More on portosystemic shunt
http://www.yorkierescue.com/livershunt/pssepidem.pdf

If it wasnt porto systemic shunt then you need to find out exactly what the problem is and do more research.
 

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Health testing and cocker spaniels is a contentious issue, the show lines are very far removed from the working lines, split to a greater degree than many other working breeds. The show lines seem to have a greater incidence of some heridtary illnesses than the working lines, people I've spoken to with working cockers, including the OH, have never heard of any incidence of some of the conditions they are expected to test for, and refuse to do so as it simply isn't within their breeding lines. If it is, then surely someone would have had a clinically affected case by now they would have heard of. I know not everyone will agree with that, but it goes back to a few posts on a different thread recently, where the point was made that health testing on it's own isn't any better than knowing your lines inside and out, indeed I would prefer the latter, rather than a few pieces of paper relating to the health status of one or two dogs.
 

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Health testing and cocker spaniels is a contentious issue, the show lines are very far removed from the working lines, split to a greater degree than many other working breeds. The show lines seem to have a greater incidence of some heridtary illnesses than the working lines, people I've spoken to with working cockers, including the OH, have never heard of any incidence of some of the conditions they are expected to test for, and refuse to do so as it simply isn't within their breeding lines. If it is, then surely someone would have had a clinically affected case by now they would have heard of. I know not everyone will agree with that, but it goes back to a few posts on a different thread recently, where the point was made that health testing on it's own isn't any better than knowing your lines inside and out, indeed I would prefer the latter, rather than a few pieces of paper relating to the health status of one or two dogs.
I agree but the OP saying she bred to raise some cash needed addressing for anyone else that thinks breeding may be a good way to make money....I know you had a financially disastrous litter due to C Section......same here......so a lesson for any lurkers that may think breeding is easy money.
 

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I agree but the OP saying she bred to raise some cash needed addressing for anyone else that thinks breeding may be a good way to make money....I know you had a financially disastrous litter due to C Section......same here......so a lesson for any lurkers that may think breeding is easy money.
I think they've deleted all those posts and I wasn't agreeing with what they'd done, just putting the side there to the differences in hereditary conditions between the working and show bred types; to be honest, it's not like there isn't enough badly bred, churned out cocker spaniels, their KC registration is second only to Labradors, and some of them look nothing like either show or working cockers, quite sad really :(
 

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Health testing and cocker spaniels is a contentious issue, the show lines are very far removed from the working lines, split to a greater degree than many other working breeds. The show lines seem to have a greater incidence of some heridtary illnesses than the working lines, people I've spoken to with working cockers, including the OH, have never heard of any incidence of some of the conditions they are expected to test for, and refuse to do so as it simply isn't within their breeding lines. If it is, then surely someone would have had a clinically affected case by now they would have heard of. I know not everyone will agree with that, but it goes back to a few posts on a different thread recently, where the point was made that health testing on it's own isn't any better than knowing your lines inside and out, indeed I would prefer the latter, rather than a few pieces of paper relating to the health status of one or two dogs.
I know of at least 2 working bred dogs that are clinically affected in the BRS. There may be no FN in working lines yet but it is rare in show types anyway :).
 

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Dogs are covered under the Sale of Goods Act 1979. A puppy sold with and subsequently dying from a hereditary illness would be neither of satisfactory quality or fit for purpose under it. The owners would be able to reclaim purchase price and quite possibly vets fees if they pursue it.
Having been in this situation I know that pups do not come under sale of goods act unless the breeder is a licensed breeder as the puppies are not sold in the course of a business, therefore she has fulfilled her obligations.
 

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I know of at least 2 working bred dogs that are clinically affected in the BRS. There may be no FN in working lines yet but it is rare in show types anyway :).
I've replied to your pm, thanks for the info, it doesn't mean much to me but I'm sure the OH is well aware of these dogs ;)

Working cocker aficionados are a funny lot, they won't touch half of their own supposed lines, because they believe they're not *proper cockers*. I have no idea if those dogs you sent me the names of via pm are inside or outside of that term, I wouldn't like to hazard a guess, although I do know neither names seem to be in the pedigrees of his dogs after having a quick look.

Not spaniels, but it's no coincidence that the form of PRA present in Golden Retrievers has been found in lines in Europe where there is a sudden higher incidence of yellow flatcoats. It's one reason I am pro DNA profiling, I'm not keen on the extra cost, but if it would cut out the majority of those who cheat the system by using different dogs, even different breeds, to get the traits they desire, possibly at the detriment of the dogs overall. There are too many cheats who say one thing and do another, no system is fool proof but at least DNA testing would close a very large loophole in the system which is easily and frequently flouted.
 
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