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Guilty until proven innocent

Discussion in 'Pet News' started by rona, Oct 10, 2014.


  1. noushka05

    noushka05 Unicorn denier. Snowflake. Activist ;)

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    There is a wealth of sound evidence PROVING gamekeepers are killing raptors , catching them red handed is the problem, so this is why I would support any legislation that might save raptors from persecution. It is then up to the courts to decide if any human rights have been breached, NOT ME. And I believe EVERYONE has the right to challenge a decision they feel is an infringement on their rights. So why is my argument flawed?? I can provide references PROVING gamekeepers on grouse moors are SOLELY responsible for reducing our hen harriers to a handful of birds. Even the shooting industry has been forced to admit they are responsible for their demise. Do we just leave these wildlife criminals to wipe out the last four remaining pairs??!! The best scenario would be an outright ban on driven grouse moors.

    ,
     
  2. Goblin

    Goblin PetForums VIP

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    Yet you are saying to abandon human rights despite being able to prove the fact?
     
  3. noushka05

    noushka05 Unicorn denier. Snowflake. Activist ;)

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    No i'm not lol
     
  4. chillminx

    chillminx PetForums VIP

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    General Licences, to shoot or trap crows and pigeons, granted to landowners are a privilege not a right. It is therefore justifiable and perfectly legal to remove that privilege if there is a suspicion the rules are not being strictly adhered to. To remove something granted as a privilege is not abusing anyone's Human Rights.

    The fact gamekeepers may lose their jobs and homes as a result of the landowner losing their Licence is economic fallout, the same kind of fallout suffered by many people when jobs are lost due to a downturn in the local or national economy.

    No-one has a right to work, or a right to a home, in a capitalist economy.
     
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  5. Goblin

    Goblin PetForums VIP

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    So you approve of anyone kicking you out of a job on hearsay? If anything human rights need to be upheld even more strongly in a capitalist economy, to prevent slave labour as one simple example.
     
  6. chillminx

    chillminx PetForums VIP

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    The question of whether I approve or disapprove is immaterial. The fact is that is how a capitalist economy works i.e. on the basis of market forces. If you want a society where everyone has a right to work, a right to a home, and a right not to be exploited for their labour, then you need to be living in a socialist society. No other system is fool proof, certainly not a capitalist system.

    As I explained, the Licence is granted as a privilege, with certain terms and conditions that must be adhered to. If there are any grounds for suspecting the landowner is not adhering to them, then there is legal justification for suspending (or withdrawing) the Licence pending investigation by the organisation which grants the Licences.

    I don't know what you mean by "hearsay" in this context:confused: As I understand it there are witnesses to the killings who have had the courage to 'blow the whistle'. That is not hearsay.

    The gamekeeper is employed by the landowner, the landowner hires and fires his staff, not the State. If anyone should be responsible for protecting the gamekeeper from loss of home and livelihood it should be the landowner who has allegedly broken the terms of the Licence.
     
  7. rona

    rona Still missing my boys

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  8. chillminx

    chillminx PetForums VIP

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    It is brilliant news! :)

    I don't think it exactly 'proves your point' - more like "an exception to the rule" seeing as so many tagged hen harriers have disappeared without trace, and whistle blowers have spoken up re the involvement of land owners and game keepers involved the disappearances.
     
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  9. rona

    rona Still missing my boys

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    Another turned up 100s of miles away too, and yet another was found to have died of natural causes. All had been blamed on gamekeepers
     
  10. chillminx

    chillminx PetForums VIP

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    Three exceptions to the rule then ! :D
     
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  11. rona

    rona Still missing my boys

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    And how many have been proven to have been persecuted?

    That's not the point anyway, those people would have been penalised for something never ever did and with no real proof
     
  12. rona

    rona Still missing my boys

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    i can find up to 2013 and no one had been convicted for persecution of any tagged bird
     
  13. CuddleMonster

    CuddleMonster PetForums VIP

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    It's a daft idea - anyone who wanted to cause problems for a landowner or gamekeeper could just poison a bird and chuck it onto their land.

    And if you think it doesn't happen...I used to live on a farm which didn't have any public rights of way on it, but I had permission from the farmer to walk the land. In ONE summer, I found three buzzards and two foxes, all dead from poison in the same two fields (fields bordered by another farmer's land and by a main road with lots of convenient stopping places) The farmer was really upset as he loved seeing the buzzards and even though he wasn't keen on foxes because they took the chickens, he didn't believe any animal should be poisoned. Police weren't interested in investigating, and we never did find out who was responsible, yet under these new 'laws' he would be blamed because it was his land.
     
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  14. rona

    rona Still missing my boys

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    I've found dead birds of prey several times on National trust ground.
     
  15. noushka05

    noushka05 Unicorn denier. Snowflake. Activist ;)

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    There is a 6% failure of satellite tags.

    Satellite tags of this type are designed to last for up to 5 years (though sadly, hen harriers rarely seem to live that long). Highlander’s tag was two years old and is the only confirmed failure out of 23 RSPB-monitored hen harrier satellite tags deployed in the last 3 years (ie a 4% failure rate). Researchers at the Dutch Montagu’s Harrier Foundation have previously recorded a 6% technical failure rate (out of 67 birds tagged) using exactly the same make and model of satellite tag, with all failures occurring on tags older than at least one year. This puts the failure of this bird’s tag well within the realms of expected normality, so I suppose we shouldn’t be surprised that something like this would happen sooner or later.




    There is NO ambiguity that the reason hen harriers are on the brink of extinction here, is down to persecution by grouse moors. We have already established this by experts you yourself validated Rona:rolleyes:. Grouse moors are sink holes, not only for our stunning, hen harrier, but for most species of birds of prey. Its awesome news if indeed Highlander has been found alive & well, sadly if she returns to a grouse moor her days are numbered.


    The reaction from the dishonest shooting fraternity is so predictable though.

    The fantastic Raptor Persecution blog >>


    Raptor Persecution‏@RaptorPersScot 17h17 hours ago


    Satellite-tagged hen harrier 'Highlander' is probably still alive. Cue hysteria from grouse shooting industry https://raptorpersecutionscotland.w...n-harrier-highlander-is-probably-still-alive/




    Last spring, a satellite-tagged hen harrier called ‘Highlander’ joined the ranks of the ‘missing’ as her sat tag suddenly stopped transmitting over a grouse moor in Co Durham (see here).

    When you consider the extraordinarily high disappearance rate of young, tagged hen harriers (78.7% as of 2014) and the absence of breeding hen
    harriers on almost every driven grouse moor in the country, it wasn’t unreasonable to conclude that she’d been illegally killed.

    But in Highlander’s case, she just may be the one who got away and against all the odds, survived past her second birthday. According to the RSPB’s Skydancer blog (see here), Highlander may still be alive and the cause of her ‘disappearance’ is likely to have been a satellite tag technical failure.

    Predictably, the usual suspects from within the grouse shooting industry have already taken to social media to use today’s news as an opportunity to pretend that hen harriers are not routinely killed on grouse moors but that the many hen harriers that have been reported as ‘missing’ over the last ten years have suffered from satellite tag technical faults. That may be plausible for one or two ‘missing’ birds, but unfortunately for the grouse shooting propagandists, these technical failures don’t happen very often, and nor do sat tag technical failures explain the absence of breeding hen harriers on most driven grouse moors.

    We know from a study of Montagu’s harriers, fitted with exactly the same type of tag as the UK hen harriers, that technical failures amount to just 6% (n = 67 tagged birds). Highlander’s failed tag is the first technical failure the RSPB has recorded (n = 23 tagged birds) so this failure rate is well within the expected range.

    Satellite tag failure rates will be further scrutinised in the forthcoming review of satellite tag data from hen harriers, golden eagles and red kites in Scotland, which is expected to be completed by March. We know the grouse shooting industry is extremely twitchy about this review because they know as well as we do what the results are likely to show, and it won’t be good news for them. So it’s unsurprising that they’ll use every opportunity presented in the run up to that report being published to discredit the data, discredit the researchers who fit the tags, and discredit the tag-fitting techniques. Interestingly, you don’t see them trying to discredit the data, researchers or techniques associated with the satellite-tracking of woodcock (GWCT) or cuckoos (BTO) – it’s only the upland raptors. Funny that.




    What a survivor Highlander is, makes me feel so ashamed of my species when I read this.http://www.rspb.org.uk/community/ou...ncer/archive/2017/01/13/highlander-lives.aspx


    Highlander lives?
    [​IMG] Blánaid Denman
    13 Jan 2017 7:00 AM

    • Comments 1
    • Likes 6 others like this' data-format="{count}" data-configuration="Format=%7Bcount%7D">7

    It’s a rare delight in the world of hen harriers to be able to start the New Year with some good news, but I am utterly astonished and elated to report that Highlander, a female hen harrier which fledged from United Utilities estate in the Forest of Bowland in 2014, and who suddenly and unexpectedly went missing in County Durham in April 2016, has possibly been found alive!

    [​IMG]

    Highlander and her sibling, Sky, just after having their satellite tags fitted, in Bowland, 2014. (Image: Jude Lane)

    To most people, Highlander is the eponymous lead character, played by Christopher Lambert, in the classic 1986 British-American action fantasy film, about an immortal Scottish swordsman on an epic quest. As our own Highlander was “adopted” by children from the local Brennand’s Endowed Primary School however, I’m going to hazard a guess it’s unlikely they had that particular kilt-wearing protagonist in mind when choosing a name for our young female. Nevertheless, I can’t think of a more fitting name for a bird that apparently against all expectation, seems to keep surviving.

    [​IMG]

    The classic 1986 film, Highlander.

    The full story of Highlander’s tenacity can be read in the blog we posted in early June 2016, around the time of her disappearance. However, here’s a quick reminder of this exceptional bird’s life story:

    June 2014: Four hen harrier chicks from two nests are ringed and satellite tagged by Natural England in partnership with RSPB on the United Utilities estate in the Forest of Bowland. Two of these are “adopted” by children from Brennand’s Endowed Primary School, who name the young females, Sky and Highlander.

    September 2014: Highlander starts to explore areas to the south of Bowland but her sister, Sky, and a tagged female from the other Bowland nest, Hope, suddenly disappear within days of each other in suspicious circumstances. They are never found.

    Winter 2014/15: Highlander spends the winter months favouring a few particular roost sites within 30 miles of Bowland.

    March 2015: She returns to Bowland

    April 2015: She pairs up with a third-year adult male and they start the process of nest-building and egg-laying.

    May 2015: Highlander’s mate is the first of four adult males with active nests in Bowland to inexplicably and suspiciously vanish while hunting away from their nest sites that summer. Having been forced to abandon her nest to hunt, Highlander quickly pairs with a young male and resumes her nesting attempt, laying a record total of nine eggs between both mates. Highlander’s new mate is discovered to be polygamous and, struggling to provide for his two females, he abandons Highlander to fend for herself, resulting in the failure of her nest.

    June 2015: She leaves Bowland for southern Scotland but returns a week later and pairs with a third male.

    July 2015: Highlander’s first chick hatches but just five days later, the nest is predated and all young are lost.

    Autumn/Winter 2015/16: She returns to her favoured roosts from the previous winter.

    March 2016: Highlander returns to Bowland for several short visits but doesn’t stay.

    April 2016: Highlander's tag stops transmitting. Her last known location is in County Durham.

    [​IMG]

    Highlander's second nesting attempt with an incredible 9 eggs. (Image: James Bray, 2015)

    Here’s what we said about her disappearance at the time:

    Sister to a missing sibling, partner to a missing mate, and three nest failures in the space of two months, our Highlander endured through it all. However, on 16 April 2016, Highlander’s satellite tag suddenly and unaccountably ceased transmission. The last signal received placed her in County Durham but it's possible she may have moved on from the area before going offline. We don’t know what caused the satellite tag to fail but transmission up to that point had been strong and there was no indication of battery failure. She has not been found.

    ...until now (maybe)!

    In October 2016, an unknown satellite-tagged hen harrier was seen at roost near to where Highlander spent her two previous winters. Initially it had us stumped – neither we, nor Stephen Murphy at Natural England, had birds registering as being in that area and the BTO confirmed that no one else has been fitting tags to hen harriers in the UK. We contacted the only other hen harrier tracking projects in Europe, one in Ireland and one in Germany, but neither of them could claim this mystery bird either. With the dedicated help of local raptor workers, we’ve since confirmed the bird as an adult female, with no colour rings, a single BTO ring on the correct leg, but the real clincher... a tag aerial which bends very slightly to the left – all of which match with this bird being Highlander.

    Of course with no signal coming from the tag, it’s impossible to be 100% certain of the ID but the facts available are certainly very suggestive that this is more than just coincidence. So if it is actually Highlander, where did she go? And what happened to her tag? The bend in the aerial had been there from the start, so it can’t be to blame for the loss of signal.

    The short answer to both of these questions is we will probably never know. Satellite tags of this type are designed to last for up to 5 years (though sadly, hen harriers rarely seem to live that long). Highlander’s tag was two years old and is the only confirmed failure out of 23 RSPB-monitored hen harrier satellite tags deployed in the last 3 years (ie a 4% failure rate). Researchers at the Dutch Montagu’s Harrier Foundation have previously recorded a 6% technical failure rate (out of 67 birds tagged) using exactly the same make and model of satellite tag, with all failures occurring on tags older than at least one year. This puts the failure of this bird’s tag well within the realms of expected normality, so I suppose we shouldn’t be surprised that something like this would happen sooner or later.

    Whatever the reason for her tag failure and indeed, whether this bird is actually Highlander or not, her rediscovery is undeniably a cause for celebration. The tricky business now will be keeping track of her without a functioning tag. And of course if this is Highlander, the big question is... will she return to Bowland to breed this summer?

    We’ll be watching and waiting...

    If you're lucky enough to see a hen harrier, please help us keep track by submit your sightings (description of the bird, time, date, location with grid reference if possible) to our Hen Harrier Hotline on 08454600121 (calls charged at local rates) or email henharriers@rspb.org.
     
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  16. noushka05

    noushka05 Unicorn denier. Snowflake. Activist ;)

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    Hope these incidents of wildlife crime were reported to the police?
     
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  17. rona

    rona Still missing my boys

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    They were natural deaths through starvation in winter. Not that they would ever have been reported as such by the likes of you or Raptor politics where every death is caused by some misdemeanour :rolleyes:

    Also, the decline in BOP were due to gamekeepers in the late 19th and early 20th century, everyone admits to that, but the majority of land owners and game keepers have moved on since then.

    What happens when a land owner who protects BOP and actively encourages them to stay and breed gets accusation and blame? They try and discourage the BOP staying that's what. That's why you and the RSPB are wrong in your approach

    Easy to discourage the ground nesting Hen Harrier by non lethal methods
     
    #37 rona, Jan 14, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2017
  18. noushka05

    noushka05 Unicorn denier. Snowflake. Activist ;)

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    How do you know they weren't poisoned or shot?
     
  19. rona

    rona Still missing my boys

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    I can check for shot and if they were poisoned it was by the NT!!
    As I worked there ever single day for years, and there were a very prominent pair of Buzzards that reared up to 5 young every year quite successfully, also numerous Kestrels and Owls, I;m quite certain no one was out to get them :rolleyes:

    When you know the land, the wildlife and the people you don't need to make up conspiracy theories
     
  20. noushka05

    noushka05 Unicorn denier. Snowflake. Activist ;)

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    Conspiracy theories:confused: The RSPB etc, have corpses autopsied. Without, how could anyone possibly ascertain how they died?
     
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