Guilty until proven innocent

Discussion in 'Pet News' started by rona, Oct 10, 2014.


  1. rona

    rona Still missing my boy

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  2. noushka05

    noushka05 Unicorn denier.

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    Good!

    What do you suggest? just let them carry on killing with impunity? :confused: Catching a gamekeeper red handed is nigh on impossible as well you know Rona. Even GWCT have now finally admitted that gamekeepers are responsible for the demise of the hen harrier - do you seriously believe they aren't also persecuting other raptor species???? Infact we need to go even further than this where grouse moors are concerned they must be banned full stop! The shooting community has failed to put its house in order & damage they cause to the environment needs addressing.




    Cairngorms National Park Authority wants ?action? against raptor persecution | Raptor Persecution Scotland

    Yet another successfully fledged hen harrier has 'disappeared' on North Yorkshire moorland. Hen harrier Sid ?disappears? in North Yorkshire | Raptor Persecution Scotland


    Good piece by Mark Avery today on defra response to GWCT's epetition The non-joint non-plan is a non-joint non-plan says Defra | Mark Avery

    Even this government wouldn’t be foolish enough to position itself, after buzzard-gate and badger-gate, as being on the side of the grouse shooter instead of the Hen Harrier this close to a general election. Maybe after the general election…

    The shooting community, and nothing else, has reduced the Hen Harrier population to its parlous position through illegal acts – at a time when grouse bags are booming. The choice is stark – lots of grouse shooting and very few Hen Harriers or very little grouse shooting and rather more Hen Harriers?

    And it isn’t just about Hen Harriers ( or Peregrines, or Goshawks or Short-eared Owls), or Stoats, or Mountain Hares, it’s also about climate change, flood risk and water bills, it’s about blanket bogs and what sort of uplands we want.

    Society as a whole needs a plan, preferably a joint plan, for the future of the uplands, and when you take that wider longer perspective there is no place for driven grouse shooting and its ecosystem disservices and its assault on wildlife. So please sign this e-petition to ban driven grouse shooting.
     
  3. lilythepink

    lilythepink PetForums VIP

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    It will be interesting to see if this actually happens.

    There is no way of telling who has set a trap on land...legal or otherwise. We have a lot of poaching in my area and I know that these illegals will be setting traps wherever they feel like it.

    When we had sheep, we had problems with crows and it is a sad sight to see a young lamb without its eyes but still alive.We never set traps though.

    Its impossible to eradicate all trapping over wild land cos the areas are too vast and too isolated.

    I can't really see this happening here though....money talks.
     
  4. rona

    rona Still missing my boy

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    According to figures, poaching accounts for virtually 50% of wildlife crime. Figures from NWCU

    Nothing to do with money, it's the principle
     
  5. noushka05

    noushka05 Unicorn denier.

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    The greatest threat to many of our birds of prey species IS - gamekeepers!

    Poachers are just a different set of revolting wildlife criminals.


    Rona, remember how for years you played down the roll of gamekeepers in the demise of the hen harrier? well now the shooting industry itself admits they are solely responsible for pushing the species to the very brink of extinction:rolleyes:. Just think if conservationists & birders had been listened to & they had taken tough action on these criminals before they exterminated hen harrier down to just a couple of pairs? We might now be seeing them thriving in our uplands once again. We simply don't have time to wait, persecution is on the rise - something has to be done NOW.

    I have ZERO sympathy for ANY set of wildlife criminals & welcome anything that might reverse this shameful slaughter of our national heritage.

    The shooting industry has proved it cannot/will not police its own - the simple fact is they cannot be trusted with our wildlife.


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    #5 noushka05, Oct 10, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2014
  6. rona

    rona Still missing my boy

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  7. noushka05

    noushka05 Unicorn denier.

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    That's it then, we have little chance of catching these criminals red handed, so no chance of saving the hen harrier from extinction - or stopping them persecuting our peregrine, spars, buzzard, short eared owl, red kite, goshawk.

    The only other option, if you want to see persecution by gamekeepers end that is, is an out right ban on grouse moors & all commercial shooting estates then?


    Personally I think its utterly barbaric that they are allowed to shoot or trap crows & pigeons at will anyway! They should be changing the licencing to separate applications NOW.

    Landowners face losing their licences to shoot or trap crows and pigeons if they are merely suspected of illegally killing birds of prey, under draconian plans unveiled by Scottish ministers.

    Without one, landowners would have to go through the more onerous process of making separate applications to control particular species.


    Aw poor things, what a hardship:rolleyes:


    .
     
  8. Burrowzig

    Burrowzig PetForums VIP

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    Birds of prey aren't being poisoned by poachers, though. What would be the point? Poaching is for selling or eating. Corpses of birds of prey clearly have not been sold or eaten.
     
  9. rona

    rona Still missing my boy

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    Taxidermy.

    If they can make money out of it they will :(
     
  10. rona

    rona Still missing my boy

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    #10 rona, Dec 25, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2014
  11. rona

    rona Still missing my boy

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    Easy targets these land owners/ gamekeepers :rolleyes:
     
  12. Goblin

    Goblin PetForums VIP

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    Tell that to anyone falsely accused of a crime. According to the "guilty until proven innocent" philosophy I could accuse you of anything and you would have to prove you didn't do it. Wouldn't take a lot to find out when you don't have an alibi for something. How do you prove yourself innocent in the cases where poison has been placed I wonder. What's to stop an "animal fundamentalist" from laying poison themselves down and blaming a gamekeeper? How would you then prevent a miscarriage of justice?

    http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/documents/humanrights/hrr_article_6.pdf point 2 says it clearly.

    http://projects.essex.ac.uk/ehrr/V9N1/CHADAMBUKA.pdf is also worthy of note as it demonstrates recognition of the need to be able to clear your name due to the stresses any court process involves, not just to the victim of a false allegation but to others around them.
     
    #12 Goblin, Dec 26, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2014
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  13. noushka05

    noushka05 Unicorn denier.

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    The LAST 4 hen harrier nests didn't needed 24 hour monitoring because of the danger posed by taxidermists:rolleyes:

    More of your classic cherrypicking lol

    Heres an interesting FACT for you to ignore Rona- FOUR pairs of hen harrier in the whole of England in 2014 solely due to illegal persecution by gamekeepers on grouse moors;)

    Non of your sad faces:( for these birds??

    [​IMG]





    Wow what a dreadful punishment, they wouldnt be allowed free reign to kill crows & pigeons :rolleyes: As an animal lover I don't believe anyone should be allowed to randomly persecute OUR wildlife.

    Landowners face losing their licences to shoot or trap crows and pigeons if they are merely suspected of illegally killing birds of prey, under draconian plans unveiled by Scottish ministers




    Putting aside blame the blame game just for the moment, do you think its right gamekeepers should be allowed to kill crows & pigeons (and practically anything else that moves!) at will Rona? Personally I find it obscene.



    Whats to stop Animal fundamentalists? talk about clutching at straws hahaaa.

    Don't you think shooting estates should be licenced Goblin? Licensing doesn't go far enough where grouse moors are concerned, they MUST be banned if we want to save the hen harrier from extinction. Personally I think ALL hunting for 'sport' should be banned. If people hunt to eat or to survive, fine. But keeping beautiful sentient wild birds in battery conditions for example, then releasing millions of them just to use them as living targets is plain sick. ALL animals deserve some respect and there is no respect feeding semi-tame animals and then shooting them for fun to count the number of bodies. To kill a beautiful animal for some perverse cruel pleasure is totally beyond me.:confused:
     
    #13 noushka05, Dec 26, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2014
  14. Goblin

    Goblin PetForums VIP

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    Really, you deny animal rights extremists exist and wouldn't abuse the system "for the good of animals"? Animal extremism isn't something funny, neither is being falsely accused of a crime. Maybe you think so but I would guarantee you wouldn't if it happened to you.

    That's your agenda, not the topic of this thread which is a dangerous precedent, against basic human rights and you are simply, as always avoiding the thread topic. Simple question, which I doubt you will answer.. Are human rights necessary?
     
    #14 Goblin, Dec 26, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2014
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  15. Burrowzig

    Burrowzig PetForums VIP

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    If it were for taxidermy, the rotting corpses that have been tested for poison wouldn't be left in the fields, and no-one would ever know they had been poisoned in the first place. Has even happened to barn owls round here.
     
  16. rona

    rona Still missing my boy

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    If you watch birds of prey rearing their young, you could actually poison several at once when they are mature. Missing the odd body wouldn't really hit their pockets much as a bird of prey could sell for £1500-£3000.

    The Barn Owls could easily be a sloppy pest controller
    The Barn Owl Trust - The problem with rat poison

    I know that some landowners and some gamekeepers are guilty but unless they are caught in the act, there are so many other possibilities of who it could be.

    No one should be found guilty without proof :(

    Also, I've never come across a countryman of any description that didn't want Barn Owls on their land
     
    #16 rona, Dec 26, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2014
  17. noushka05

    noushka05 Unicorn denier.

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    They're not very good 'animal rights' extremists if they go around killing 'animals' are they? lmao So any references to back up your wild theory they could be responsible for killing raptors would be much appreciated, one case will do? I can references you a countless number of cases to gamekeepers convicted of wildlife crimes. Only the other day, there was the first ever prosecution using the vicarious liability legislation. This means not only did the gamekeeper get prosecuted but the landowner also. Do you think this breaches the landowners human rights? Though the penalty for the landowner was paltry, it was a historic achievement all the same & a 2nd vicarious liability case is in the pipeline.

    https://raptorpersecutionscotland.w...viction-in-landmark-vicarious-liability-case/

    Herein lies the problem - catching a gamekeeper red handed is nigh on impossible, even so there have still been 28 convictions in the last 3 years, so hardly the rare event some would have us believe:rolleyes: The shooting set are killing raptors on an industrial scale. Any raptor on a driven grouse moor, unless its a kestrel or a merlin, is on borrowed time, and that is a scientifically proven FACT. Gamekeepers are the most prolific wildlife criminals in our countryside.



    The hen harrier is on the brink of extinction - Just LOOK what some gamekeepers & some landowners have achieved Rona! :mad:
     
    #17 noushka05, Dec 27, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2014
  18. Goblin

    Goblin PetForums VIP

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    Waffle on your subject.. not answering any question about the topic in question even when put simply. You are obviously willing to totally ignore human rights so long as it fits your agenda. Says a lot I think.
     
  19. noushka05

    noushka05 Unicorn denier.

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    Yes, I do believe in human rights - If a gamekeeper/landowner feels their human rights have been breached they should definitely have the right to challenge it in court - just the same as anyone else.

    And any government that seeks to repeal our human rights legislation is not a government to be trusted.

    Does that answer your question? Will you now answer my questions?

    ETA & please do tell me what my agenda is? just so I know lol
     
    #19 noushka05, Dec 27, 2014
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  20. Goblin

    Goblin PetForums VIP

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    However you support the idea of prosecuting without the premise of innocent until proven guilty. Your answer doesn't match your argument. You don't ignore human rights when they are inconvenient.

    As for your argument and questions.. No idea about gamekeepers. I'm not involved, nor do I have unbiased information. However even the argument you put forward is flawed. It's difficult to prove but has been in the past so we should abandon human rights for these people, even if innocent :eek: