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"Guardian/Host" programs / How many pregnancies is normal?

Discussion in 'Dog Breeding' started by Kalliea, Jul 31, 2018.


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How many pregnancies is normal for a healthy breeding program?

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  1. Kalliea

    Kalliea PetForums Newbie

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    Hello All! First post, and it is a little weird.

    I volunteered to be a "Guardian" for a new puppy. How the guardian program works, a breeder gives you a female puppy. You raise it like it is your own, but when it is old enough you return it, just for breeding. The original breeder keeps the dog for a few weeks a year while it is in heat, and for a about 12 weeks when it is about to give birth, through the weening process. The breeder pays for all the vet bills related to fertility, pregnancy, and birth. I pay for all other vet costs. After a set number of pregnancies, the dog is spayed and I become the full time owner.

    I like the idea of the program, but have some concerns. My biggest concern is the number of pregnancies. The contract states that the dog will be pregnant 5 times. I don't know anything about breeding - is that a lot? A few? Industry standard? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

    *Note - This post refers to a large dog. A Bernese, to be exact.
     
  2. lullabydream

    lullabydream PetForums VIP

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    Who will be responsbile for all the health testing needed for breeding?

    What should happen if the worse occurs if you loose your bitch say during labour or after. How would you feel about this?

    What do you have to do to make sure your bitch is worthy of breeding?
     
    Torin., simplysardonic, O2.0 and 2 others like this.
  3. labradrk

    labradrk PetForums VIP

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    Just don’t. I’ve seen this as a “thing” in America, but never here in the UK. It’s basically a way for a greeder, sorry breeder, to make the maximum amount of money from the dogs they produce under the guise of making someone else look after them. Only when they are done with making money is the dogs ‘yours’.

    Run a mile and get a pet dog you can cherish rather than a breeding machine for someone to make money from.
     
  4. Lurcherlad

    Lurcherlad PetForums VIP

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    I wouldn’t want anything to do with such an arrangement tbh

    Apart from it sounding like just a way of producing lots of pups it must be very upsetting for a dog to suddenly be sent away for something horrible to happen to it imo.

    Presumably this makes the dog cheaper for you?

    Are these dogs perfect, proven specimens of the breed having had all the necessary health tests etc?
     
  5. picaresque

    picaresque Mongrelist

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    Someone farming out their bitches as breeding machines is unlikely to have good motives. They get the cash, you do all the work. Win win for them. You won't have full control over what happens to your beloved dog, pregnancy and birth is dangerous, imagine if something happened.

    Apparently this has been happening in parts of South Wales with (you've guessed it) Frenchies :(
     
  6. Jamesgoeswalkies

    Jamesgoeswalkies PetForums VIP

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    It's a lot. In the Uk the Kennel Club will only register 4 litters per bitch (and there are age constrictions too). This is to ensure the welfare of the bitch and to make sure that she isn't over bred which can cause many issues in later life. So yes a breeder wanting to breed 5 litters is not a good one. They are wanting a cash cow.

    I would walk away from such a scheme.

    J
     
  7. Kalliea

    Kalliea PetForums Newbie

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    Thanks for the response! The breeder would be responsible for all the related health testing. If the dog died during labor, I would be sad. But I think that is something that happens, even with good breeders and healthy dogs, so I wouldn't be inconsolable. I would probably request to be a guardian for one of the puppies, and try again.

    The breeder decides on the dog that will be bred. I don't pick the dog - the breeder gives me the pick of the litter that she wants in her breeding schedule. I don't have anything to do with determining "worthiness" of breeding. (I wouldn't even know where to start, beyond healthy and cute...)
     
    SpicyBulldog likes this.
  8. lullabydream

    lullabydream PetForums VIP

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    It will be happening more and more in the UK to get round breeding legalities and registering with councils etc.

    Sure fire way not to come across as a byb when technically these people are nothing more than that. Only interested in the dogs once viable for breeding to make money. Not on their property only to give birth. Hence no need to register as large scale breeders.

    If it was done properly the most important part would be health testing in contracts but litter numbers are stated instead. No doubt nothing about showing or working or even just doing something like good citizen scheme shows something.

    Bernese dogs it's important to get good health tested parents..and to be honest I think you would be lucky to get 5 litters from one unless they wanted back to back litters; not a good idea or start before they reach actual maturity.
     
  9. lullabydream

    lullabydream PetForums VIP

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    It sounds you wouldn't even guarantee healthy though.

    Health tests are pretty expensive usually involve travelling it's not just nipping to the vets to for a check up
     
  10. Whiteshadow

    Whiteshadow PetForums Senior

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    What a horrible scheme .you risk your dog health and happiness . I would never agree to send back my dog for months at a time and as said 5 times is a lot so not responsible breeding in my opinion. And all that just to get the dog for free I guess?
    As an owner it's my responsibility to take care of my dog and I wouldn't have it any other way.
     
    O2.0 and cava14 una like this.
  11. Kalliea

    Kalliea PetForums Newbie

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    The dog is 'free" for me. I pay for annual shots and check ups, food and grooming, but nothing related to breeding, testing, pregnancy. After the 5th pregnancy, the dog is entirely mine. It is supposedly a pick of the litter dog. They do it this way only with dogs they specifically want to add to their bloodline/breeding schedule. They do all the tests and first round of vaccines before deciding which dog will be sent. Apparently, every puppy is tested extensively and registered before they are sold, and the have a 2 year health guarantee on all their puppies.

    For what it is worth, I went to the farm the breeders own. It is a giant farm, that looks like puppy paradise. All the dogs seemed healthy and happy. They had a litter of puppies, and 4-5 adult dogs on the property. They have been breeding Golden's for years - they want to expand into Bernese as well (the kind of dog I'll get.) It looks like they have had 2 litters so far this year (since February.) They post all the lines and breeding information/history for every dog. However, more than breeding, they are known for dog training.
     
  12. Kalliea

    Kalliea PetForums Newbie

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    When/At what age do you normally do health tests? In the contract, it says I only pay for general upkeep health items.

    I would have to travel a fair bit no matter what, because the dog gets left at the breeders for a few weeks when in heat, and for 2-3 months when weening. But I live in a rural area, along with the breeder. It isn't a long commute - just regular. They also offer to board the dog if I'm travelling.
     
  13. Kalliea

    Kalliea PetForums Newbie

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    Thanks for the response. How many pregnancies do you think is normal? I could try adjust the contract (nothing is signed yet.) This is their first time doing the program with Bernese. They previously have only done it with Goldens. Bernese are know to have much shorter lifespans. I think it is reasonable to try and lower the number of pregnancies based on that.
     
  14. JoanneF

    JoanneF PetForums VIP

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    I don't usually contribute in this section, but I just checked the Bernese health info. Average lifespan is 8.4 years. Recommended first litter not before 2 years. Even the maths looks bad for this.
     
  15. Kalliea

    Kalliea PetForums Newbie

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    There are some items in the contract about training. The dog is suppose to be a house pet, not a show dog. It is registered, but there is not requirement to show or compete the dogs (it is up to the "guardians" to decide.

    I agree with what everyone is saying though - the math just doesn't work out. I wouldn't want to breed constantly back to back. Maybe 2 rest and than 2 more. But 5 seems excessive.
     
  16. Lurcherlad

    Lurcherlad PetForums VIP

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    I wouldn't touch with a barge pole.

    Sounds like a dreadful set up to me and very unsettling for the bitch.

    I'd rather go to rescue.
     
  17. Whiteshadow

    Whiteshadow PetForums Senior

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    The KC only allows 4 litters but it still a lot and for dog with a short life spam to spend such a big part of her life as a breeding machine? I wouldn't do it. It's just a way for the breeders to save the dog expenses.
     
  18. cava14 una

    cava14 una Anne two black and white boys and a Nortie Tortie

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    So the bitch won't really belong to you until they have got all the litters they want from her.No thanks wouldn't consider it for a minute. Walk away!
     
  19. Lurcherlad

    Lurcherlad PetForums VIP

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    Just to add, if cost is such an issue perhaps now isn't the right time to have a dog, full stop.
     
  20. Siskin

    Siskin Look into my eyes....

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    Tbh this sounds like a puppy farms way of getting round the tightening up of breeding dogs laws, farm the dogs out to someone else so the breeding bitch is not on their ‘books’.
    As it appears the bitch and any puppies will not be registered legally with the KC as they will not register puppies from back to back matings nor the fifth litter and there appears to be no health testing being done and the dog is not being shown to see whether it is a good representation of the breed, then this can only be some form of puppy farming

    Walk away.

    If you really want to own a dog, pop down to your local dog shelter and get one from there
     
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