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Discussion in 'Cat Breeding' started by carly87, Jan 25, 2012.
Ah of course, got it thanks
I've never been totally convinced, despite going to a seminar on Caramel given by Patricia Turner, in the 1980s. I also find it interesting that more "Caramels" are found in Lilacs than Blues - which does account for the fact that Chocolate naturally has a lot of wide variations in shade.
Cinnamon has even more variation. I well remember the first OCA show after the cinnamons were granted championship status.There were 9 cinnamons there of several slightly different shades. There was a time in the 1990s when every AGM of OCFG had a ritual discussion on whether to change the description of the colour in the SOP. It remains 'warm cinnamon brown' to this day.
I am often surprised at the variation in the colour of black orientals these days. They should be jet black not a rusty shade but I think type triumphs over colour every time which is very sad.
Ooo I don't know. I'd much rather see a good type cat with a slightly unsound colour winning over a poor type cat with good colour any day. Birmans in the UK have lost size, type and boning because people paid far too much attention to the colour markings and forgot about the cat.
I've not seen any rusty black Orientals, but plenty of too dark, too cold Havanas. They can all go rusty in summer if they sunbathe. I've also seen a spectacular Birman with a beautiful pale honey-colour body.
I expect it is different with Birmans, Tigermoon. In orientals and siamese, 'size' and 'boning' are certainly not synonymous with type. Type in our breeds tends to mean spindly with huge ears sticking out the side of their head. Obviously there has to be a balance between 'good' type and colour. I think both are essential. In our breeds a large share of the points are for colour.
That may be so but personally I think that to forego type over colour in whatever breed you are dealing with can only lead to loss of the true type (whatever that may be) of that breed.
I quite agree a balance must be met, but I would always chose a cat with correct type over a cat with spot-on colour/markings whose type was lacking. Birmans have more points than either the orientals or siamese for coat colour/pattern
If those of us who developed new colours had chosen type over colour, we would never have got anywhere. We had to develop the two together, sometimes breeding on from a better type cat, sometimes a better colour cat.
Anyway, I think we are talking at cross purposes here since by 'type' we tend to mean extreme type in our breeds. I do hope Birmans are never prey to breeders who want to push them to extremes.
I don't get your point here as choosing type worked when bringing the Chocolate, Red and Tabby colour series into Birmans, the colours came along too and the type of the breed didn't suffer as a consequence.
I've never heard of 'type' being used to mean extremes,but rather the overall desired structure of the cat. Birmans are classed as a moderate breed and have a specific type which is set within the standard of points. I for one would never want to see a Birman that looks like a Persian or a Siamese because then they would be expressing totally the wrong type for the breed.
If for example you breed from some kind of black girl to a red boy, is there any rule on whether the black or red will be more dominant in male offspring? Or do you just say there's are chance of black or red boys?
And if you bred a black silver tabby girl to red boy would you only get tortie girls? (With or without silver and tabby) Or could you get black (with or without silver/tabby). I know you could get black silver tabby boys.
Some kind of black girl to a red boy will produce no reds, but all the girls will be torties. To get a red boy you have to have a red or tortie girl. The red girl will produce all red boys but the tortie will produce a mixture of red and non-red boys. Don't read the next bit if you are happy with just knowing that fact but here is the explanation. Forget the black and concentrate on the red. That gene is carried on the female chromosome. A girl has two of these but a boy has only one plus a male chromosome. This means that a red boy inevitably passes his red gene to all his female offspring but to get a boy he must pass on his male chromosome, hence no reds.
So yes, the black silver tabby girl to a red boy will produce all tortie girls. And yes, all non-red boys.
Oh of course! Sometimes I just need it explaining again but I totally understand, the amount of misinformation being told by breeders to a breeder I know is scary.
Just to clarify, males pass on their Y chromosome to all male offspring?
So the possibilities are black or black silver tabby/smoke? (With Aa and aa parents).
Being male requires a male (Y) chromosome.That is what makes them different from us! Females have no Y chromosome so inevitably all the males inherit their sire's Y chromosome.
The possibilities are probably as you say but without knowing the exact genotype you could not be absolutely certain but definitely no red boys.
Got you thank you I feel like I kind of know what I'm talking about now!
The brown tortie tabby to red had no reds btw, but did have colours I thought she would!
Would a ticked tabby to a solid have any other tabby patterns? She is a tortie tabby with white (carries dilute as daddy a blue) to a solid blue so I know there might be black / blue torties, red, cream, blacks, blue with or without white (she is a NFO, so no chocolate cinnamon etc) but I was intrigued as to the tabby patterning the kittens might have. She carries the silver gene as great great grand mummy is a silver. (I'm hoping for a black and white tuxedo typey girl but I reckon the litter is going to be a singleton boy)
The ticked gene is dominant to the other tabby patterns so it depends what patterns both cats carry. If she is pure for ticked, other patterns cannot be expressed. She could only have classics if both cats carry that gene. Although the silver gene continues to elude those researchers trying to find a DNA test, it is considered to be dominant so cannot be carried. Is she overstamped 'silver in the pedigree?' This is because low grade silver can be hard to detect especially in dilute cats so the overstamping was introduced to warn anybody who might find it unwelcome.
I have a feeling it's theoretically possible to get all tabby patterns from this mating. Both cats need to carry classic, and the solid needs to be a mackerel tabby carrying classic. One or both of them needs a gene for spotted as well.
Classic + classic = classic
Mackerel + classic = mackerel
Ticked + classic = ticked
Spotted turns classic / mackerel tabbies into spotted tabbies.
It might be possible to tell if your girl is homozygous for ticked unless her legs are all white. A cat with two ticked genes will have virtually no tabby striping on its legs etc but a heterozygous one will have leg bars and tail rings and more facial markings. It is not known for certain if there is a spotted gene. It is possible the spotted pattern could be due to polygenes. (There is also a suspicion this could be the case with silver but that is not relevant to this mating.)
Thank you, so from what you have said I can expect pretty much any tabby pattern as she has classic, mackerel and spotted in her pedigree. He has 4 gens of solids and white both sides but he has mackerel and classic back 5 generations.
I think she is probably a homozygous for ticked as she has well defined bars and facial markings and I have looked back through her 5 gen pedigree and I can't see another ticked tabby in her pedigree but there is a maternal line of white cats and solids so I assume they must be the ticked tabbies carriers.
I did not realise the silver was a dominant, therefore couldn't be carried and yes she is over stamped silver in pedigree.
What both cats have on their pedigrees 5 generations back is only an indication of the possibilities. What the parents carry is the important thing. If she has well defined tabby markings she is heterozygous for ticked so you may have kittens with other tabby patterns.