Welcome to PetForums

Join thousands of other pet owners and pet lovers on the UK's most popular and friendly pet community and discussion forum.

Sign Up

Genetics and Breeding

Discussion in 'Cat Breeding' started by carly87, Jan 25, 2012.


  1. QOTN

    QOTN PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2014
    Messages:
    5,362
    Likes Received:
    10,021
    I will answer your questions separately since I have only just seen these later posts.

    Black is only dominant to chocolate and cinnamon. Perhaps you remember I said those basic colours were at the same locus but red is located on the female chromosome and you are correct in saying it is always expressed but, on occasion, you have to look very hard to find it.

    The reason the offspring from a cream parent can be red is because cream is only red with the addition of two dilute genes. A cream must pass on one of its dilute genes to all its offspring but you have to have a dilute gene from each parent to produce a dilute cat. So red to blue can produce black because blue is the black gene with the addition of two dilute genes. Again, the blue will only pass on one of its dilute genes to each kitten. If the other parent does not pass on a dilute gene, the kitten will not be dilute.
     
    Susan M likes this.
  2. QOTN

    QOTN PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2014
    Messages:
    5,362
    Likes Received:
    10,021
    You have to remember that a cat inherits one of every pair of genes from each parent. The reason a red dam can produce a red boy is because the red gene is sex-linked and a male only has one female chromosome. A red dam mated to a non-red male will only produce tortie females. To get a red girl you have to have red on both sides.

    Sorry to dash the expectations of red kittens but the mating you describe will produce tortie females and all non-red males, no reds at all. Brown tabby is simply another name for black tabby.
     
    Susan M likes this.
  3. QOTN

    QOTN PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2014
    Messages:
    5,362
    Likes Received:
    10,021
    Sorry to be picky but your fawns are bl bl. Cinnamon is classed as light brown hence bl not b1.
     
  4. OrientalSlave

    OrientalSlave Shunra Oriental Cats

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2012
    Messages:
    11,763
    Likes Received:
    6,845
    My bad. It's very hard to tell a 1 (one) from an l (lower case l) in some type faces or if the font is rather small, must have originally seen it on an ambiguous one.
     
    QOTN likes this.
  5. Susan M

    Susan M Mama to the Spotties & Stripey

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2013
    Messages:
    4,431
    Likes Received:
    6,697
    Just realised I got that wrong, female is brown tortie tabby. That still doesn't guarantee all reds does it?

    So is brown an add odd in the same way silver is?
     
    #185 Susan M, May 15, 2015
    Last edited: May 15, 2015
  6. Tigermoon

    Tigermoon PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    Messages:
    3,766
    Likes Received:
    6,590
    @QOTN Do you happen to know anything about Fawn colouring and how it is inherited etc.?
     
  7. QOTN

    QOTN PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2014
    Messages:
    5,362
    Likes Received:
    10,021
    It doesn't guarantee all reds but it gives a chance of red girls and red boys.

    I have never bred British but I suspect that a brown tabby is the same as an oriental brown tabby. It is actually black but called brown because of the background colour. The spots will be black and it is genetically a black cat. (there is no 'brown' gene.) I expect British breeders may use black for silvers and brown for non-silvers. (Please help me here British breeders.)
     
    Susan M likes this.
  8. QOTN

    QOTN PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2014
    Messages:
    5,362
    Likes Received:
    10,021
    Indeed I do, Tigermoon. When I started breeding, one of my aims was to breed oriental fawns. In the late eighties they were very rare and just at preliminary status.

    As Oriental Slave has said, they are nearly all recessive. The only colour that is more recessive is fawn point.

    Fawn is dilute cinnamon, so requires two cinnamon genes and two dilute genes to be expressed. Does that answer your question or are you asking how to breed it?

    Cinnamon probably originated in the abyssinian breed since the sorrel is the first known example of cinnamon in pedigree cats. The oriental cinnamon was discovered by chance when Maureen Silson was investigating the genetics of the sorrel abyssinian which at that time was thought to be some form of red although it was known it was not sex-linked.

    In the early nineties the first British cinnamons were bred and I think there are other breeds that have also adopted the cinnamon gene since.
     
    Tigermoon likes this.
  9. Susan M

    Susan M Mama to the Spotties & Stripey

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2013
    Messages:
    4,431
    Likes Received:
    6,697
    Understand that, I did think expecting all reds didn't seem right.
    One more silly question, using black as an example, to get blue do you have to have one dilute from each parent? Not two dilutes from the same parent? Does that even exist, I made that up didn't I?
     
  10. Tigermoon

    Tigermoon PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    Messages:
    3,766
    Likes Received:
    6,590
    Thank you @QOTN yes it does. I've often wondered if Fawn lurks in Birmans unnoticed and is just lumped in with Lilac (due to the fact there are two distinct lilac colours in the breed), but from what you are saying here, I guess not.
     
  11. OrientalSlave

    OrientalSlave Shunra Oriental Cats

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2012
    Messages:
    11,763
    Likes Received:
    6,845
    Pairs of genes always come one from each parent.
     
    Susan M likes this.
  12. OrientalSlave

    OrientalSlave Shunra Oriental Cats

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2012
    Messages:
    11,763
    Likes Received:
    6,845
    If cinnamon was lurking in Birmans you would also get cinnamon-points. Those different lilacs might be lilac-based caramel & lilac, though you would also get two different sorts of blue if that was the case.
     
  13. OrientalSlave

    OrientalSlave Shunra Oriental Cats

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2012
    Messages:
    11,763
    Likes Received:
    6,845
    Oriental fawns are still very rare and there are not many more Oriental cinnamons. It's hard to find studs who carry cinnamon as well, at least ones within 5 hours drive.

    Eadlin is the 3rd ever Gr Ch, and the first one was a long time ago, before 2010 I believe. The second was a show or three before Eadlin! I did show two at the same show last year, possibly the first person ever to do so in GCCF.
     
  14. Tigermoon

    Tigermoon PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    Messages:
    3,766
    Likes Received:
    6,590
    Caramel? I've never heard of that, is that a separate colour or related to Lilac? I've never seen anything I could describe as cinnamon in Birmans in the UK.
     
  15. gskinner123

    gskinner123 PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2010
    Messages:
    3,470
    Likes Received:
    1,174
    Pretty much. Dedicated, traditionalist BSH silver breeders would most usually consider using a black as an "outcross" for silver breeding in an attempt to improve type, bone and overall size, BSH silvers often lacking in those things. It's not commonly done, however, as using any non-silver cat in a silver breeding programme tends to result in tarnishing of the silver and, of course, selfs have the incorrect eye colour for black silver BSH breeding - it's the usual trade off. Browns tend to be the focus of breeders who are particularly interested in that colour and their associated dilute and tortie tabby colours.

    The vast majority of dedicated black silver tabby BSH breeders choose not to 'outcross' to other colours and if they're considering it, it's often with much deliberation as they know that doing so will almost certainly mean several generations forward before they can regain true green eye colour and clear, untarnished coats, resulting in many (dare I say, good) black silver lines remaining homozygous for agouti, the inhibitor gene and the vast majority would also not carry dilute. Somewhere in between are those who are breeding the AOC silvers. At the other end of the scale there are those who seem not to mind using just about any coloured BSH cat - including bi-colours and colourpoint :( - so long as the end result is a silver litter (or what they *think* will be a silver litter) and, as they have always been, highly desirable as pets with the associated price tag.
     
    Susan M likes this.
  16. QOTN

    QOTN PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2014
    Messages:
    5,362
    Likes Received:
    10,021
    Please do not worry about the so-called caramel gene. It is only a theory. According to this theory there is a 'dilute modifier gene' which alters the appearance of a dilute cat. Despite ongoing research no such gene has so far been found. Those of us who are cynical think it is probably all part of the polygenic variation present in any colour and it becomes more noticeable when breeders concentrate on type over colour.

    Originally it was claimed the dilute modifier gene was carried by dense coloured cats but then 'funny coloured' dilutes started appearing from two dilute parents. That was, and still is, a problem.

    Just be grateful if you don't have judges arguing endlessly over whether or not a particular Birman is caramel!
     
    MerlinsMum likes this.
  17. Tigermoon

    Tigermoon PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    Messages:
    3,766
    Likes Received:
    6,590
    They already argue whether or not a Birman is Red Point or Red Tabby Point and I've even seen judges arguing if a cat was Seal or Chocolate and Blue or Lilac!! All three sets of judges were Birman breeders so really should know! Particularly is it was obvious in the case of the Seal/Chocolate one.

    I've got a litter at the moment ... all Lilac. Most are a delightful pink colour but one is darker than the others. In fact I thought that it must be chocolate but as they are now 7 weeks old there really is no way it can be chocolate.
     
  18. OrientalSlave

    OrientalSlave Shunra Oriental Cats

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2012
    Messages:
    11,763
    Likes Received:
    6,845
    At least all the above can be settled by DNA testing. I've seen beautiful tabby markings of some self red cats!
     
  19. Susan M

    Susan M Mama to the Spotties & Stripey

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2013
    Messages:
    4,431
    Likes Received:
    6,697
    Yep, all silver breeders I've come into contact with only breed silver with silver because of the reasons you've said, black smokes are also less desirable because they have incorrect eye colour bred from silvers.

    When I was re-reading Carly's post it says AA females will have all tabby offspring? Does that mean aa female to AA male will result in the same?
     
  20. QOTN

    QOTN PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2014
    Messages:
    5,362
    Likes Received:
    10,021
    Yes, since you only need one agouti gene to get a tabby. (It is dominant.) A cat with two agouti genes inevitably passes one of them to all its offspring. The mating AA to aa will produce all tabbies all carrying non-agouti.
     
    Susan M likes this.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice