Welcome to PetForums

Join thousands of other pet owners and pet lovers on the UK's most popular and friendly pet community and discussion forum.

Sign Up

Foundation Bitch

Discussion in 'Dog Breeding' started by SEVEN_PETS, May 18, 2010.


  1. SEVEN_PETS

    SEVEN_PETS PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2009
    Messages:
    6,661
    Likes Received:
    133
    Hiya

    I think most people on here know that I am planning to breed fully health tested cavaliers in the future. I plan to get a foundation bitch that has show potential and from a showing background with at least a champion in the first few generations, maybe even one of the parents. I am hoping to get a cavalier that has fully health tested parents, so on some tests, she'll be clear by parentage. But my questions are these:

    1. What do you do if she comes up with an affected result from a test or she has high hip scores for example? Would I have to spay her and then get and run another foundation bitch on to see if she has clear results?

    2. Should I get two foundation bitches and run them both together, so I get more chance of at least one getting fully clear health tests and being allowed to breed?

    I would have to run them on until they are at least 2.5 years old for full health tests, so if she fails at that age, I've effectively wasted 2.5 years to show her successfully for her not to be my foundation bitch. Would I have to wait another 2.5 years with another foundation bitch to be able to start my breeding line?
     
  2. Sleeping_Lion

    Sleeping_Lion Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2009
    Messages:
    21,573
    Likes Received:
    668
    Unless she is what you want, health test wise, conformation and temperament, personally, I'd start afresh.
     
  3. archielee

    archielee PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2009
    Messages:
    4,220
    Likes Received:
    24
    If it was me i would get 2 :) good luck
     
  4. Nicky10

    Nicky10 PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2010
    Messages:
    23,698
    Likes Received:
    1,282
    I'd start afresh keep her of course but get another bitch. You're intent on breeding healthy cavaliers you don't want to start with one that has a health problem. Two might be a good idea provided of course you put in the work required with two puppies
     
  5. rocco33

    rocco33 PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2009
    Messages:
    5,443
    Likes Received:
    770
    Yes, I'm afraid that's part of the responsibility of breeding. You can increase your odds by doing research, research and research into lines, breeders etc. In fact, if it's a show dog you want, I would start going to shows now long before you want to get your bitch. Talk to others there, not just the breeders, but others that show too (not all people who show breed). This will give you a chance to learn, get to know those lines (and breeders) that you like and sort the wheat from the chaff.

    Personally, I wouldn't but it's up to you and what you can manage. You don't necessarily need to wait 2.5 years if you're getting another bitch anyway. I don't show, so don't know if the general thinking is different in show dogs, but I don't breed to have my own 'line', nor do I consider I'm creating a line - simply trying to produce the best pups I can from good, quality, health tested working dogs.
     
  6. SEVEN_PETS

    SEVEN_PETS PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2009
    Messages:
    6,661
    Likes Received:
    133
    I'll start afresh definitely. I wouldn't breed from any bitch or stud that didn't have full clear or low health tests. The question really is should I run one or two together? Maybe I should get one and then get another maybe a year down the line, so its a big enough gap that they get individual attention and training and individual showing classes (couldn't take two pups into the same puppy classes at the same show) when they are young, but its not too big a gap to wait if the first one fails on health tests for the next one to come along.
     
  7. casandra

    casandra PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2008
    Messages:
    1,213
    Likes Received:
    82
    Well, for one, I would NEVER breed from a bitch with high hip scores, or pretty much anything wrong with them. If you were talking about something like von Willebrands Disease in which you can have Clear, Carrier, or Affected, then I would only breed a Clear to Clear or Clear to Carrier, never would I breed a carrier to carrier (25%clear, 50% carriers, 25% affected) or affected to affected.

    Affected to Clear would produce all carriers, but I would only breed from an affected bitch if she weren't clinically affected (ie, actually had the bleeding problems normally assosicated with vWD).

    If you (general, not talking about you specifically) aren't prepared to show commitment to the breed, even if that means going through a dead-end bitch or two before you get your foundation that you have dreamed of, then you shouldn't bother with breeding.

    I've suffered alongside the breeders of several litters that I was hoping would hold a foundation bitch for me. 2-3 reabsorbed litters, 1 litter born, but didn't make it and 1 litter all male.

    Do I have my foundation bitch yet? No. Is it looking like I will have a foundation bitch in the near future (next 3-9 months)? No.

    The right bitch will come along for you. Just get really friendly with a breeder that you feel comfortable with and that you can trust. Help them out by attending shows with them and mucking up after their dogs, you'll learn a lot about grooming and presenting this way!

    Only get one bitch at a time. Seriously, you will thank yourself for it later. Showing two puppies of the same age is very difficult!! Also, bitches tend to bring each other into heat, so when you plan to mate one bitch, you'll have to probably leave at least a courtesy 12 months before mating the other bitch as often times, the first mated bitch will feel as if she is the alpha bitch, which can make the other bitch feel weird or nervous about having puppies.

    I feel very strongly that it is best to have a good 3-5 years between breeding bitches in age.

    Also if you get two bitches from the same litter (not advised anyways) and one has excellent health test results at 2.5 years of age, but the other one has v. poorly hips or eyes etc, then it is likely that your "excellent" bitch is a carrier for those genetic issues that are showing up in the poorly bitch.
     
    #7 casandra, May 18, 2010
    Last edited: May 18, 2010
  8. SEVEN_PETS

    SEVEN_PETS PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2009
    Messages:
    6,661
    Likes Received:
    133
    thanks for your advice.

    with cavaliers, you have to wait until they are 2.5 years old to assess whether they have serious heart murmurs. After this age, it's usually considered that if there is no heart murmurs then, it would be ok to breed.
     
  9. leoti

    leoti PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2007
    Messages:
    1,152
    Likes Received:
    34
    This is luck of the draw when u purchase a puppy even a puppy from health tested parents as you wont know what the hips scores will be till she is at least 12 months old so if both puppies have high scores were do you go then ?,
    Also as i presume you will be buying from a show kennel if at all possible try to see what other puppies from that breeder are doing if for example there been shown and what there health results are this will give you a good indication as to what your results may be .
    Take my pup he is clear by parentage for TNS/ CEL but am still having him tested as i need to keep the line clear and as people are already intrested in using him for stud he will be hip scored and elbow scored but until then we have to wait and see
     
  10. kaisa624

    kaisa624 PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2010
    Messages:
    2,701
    Likes Received:
    19
    We're possibly getting another CKCS later this year, winter time probably, to use along with Holly, if she is good at her showing. She came from fully health tested parents, and we will go to a different kennel to get our second CKCS.
     
  11. rocco33

    rocco33 PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2009
    Messages:
    5,443
    Likes Received:
    770
    Yes, I think it's 2.5 years for an MRI scan too, although not my breed so can't be sure.

    I would think with cavaliers, that heart, eyes and MRI are probably more prevalent than hip problems, but I may be wrong.

    Unfortunately, it's a chance you take and part of good breeding is knowing when NOT to breed ;) - we all love our dogs, and 'kennel blindness' exists in showing circles (and working ones) as it is amongst pet owners, but it is important to be unemotional about breeding decisions. It can be disappointing to bring on a puppy that shows a lot of promise either fail health tests, or, never fulfil that promise but it's all a part of breeding.
     
  12. SEVEN_PETS

    SEVEN_PETS PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2009
    Messages:
    6,661
    Likes Received:
    133
    I would never breed from a bitch that failed even one test. She would continue her show career and then spayed and kept as a pet. I think I will get one bitch at the beginning, because its the first time I've had a show dog so i need to learn with just one dog at the start. Then about a year down the line, i'll get another bitch.
     
  13. swarthy

    swarthy PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2010
    Messages:
    5,740
    Likes Received:
    285
    Sadly, I've been in this situation :( I bought in a super pup from a top kennel - showed her from 6 months, Eye tested, PRA tested, hip and elbow scored and her hips were way too high for me to breed from, it was bad luck - nothing more, nothing less and I've since gone back to the same breeder for another dog (male this time).

    About a year later, I bought in a black bitch, who hated showing and I had to rehome her back through her breeder. - a heartbreaking decision that was right for the dog.

    I also bought in a yellow dog who sadly also hated showing and now lives on an 80 acre farm by the sea and is like a p*g in sh*t - a devastating decision that was also right for the dog.

    I was in the fortunate (if you could call it that) of having a fully health tested pet bitch to fall back on - and I started from there rather than buy in again - I am now on my third generation and they seem to be coming on very nicely.

    As far as my original foundation bitch goes, she is snoring away on my sofa, she is a super super show girl and loves life at 100mph - and I think I would probably find it easier to part with my right arm than let her go anywhere :(

    But it is truly heartbreaking as she is a super super bitch who everyone falls in love with a pedigree that TBH is just fantastic - with health results to match - I just got unlucky :(

    ================

    Sometimes you have to take a chance, the route I eventually decided to go, having spent nigh on £2K on dogs I've not been able to breed from, or move on is not for the fainthearted - sometimes you have to take a chance though.

    I wish you luck whatever route you decide to take - I really was the exception to the rule, most people are not so unlucky - and I can't say I am unlucky when I have a girl with such a unique personality and love of life.
     
  14. muse08

    muse08 PetForums Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2008
    Messages:
    214
    Likes Received:
    9
    When you say "I am hoping to get a cavalier that has fully health tested parents, so on some tests, she'll be clear by parentage"

    What are the tests your refering to in relation to being clear by parentage?
    I am not aware of any dna tests available at the moment that can determine clear status or carriers for any of the conditions in cavs.
     
  15. SEVEN_PETS

    SEVEN_PETS PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2009
    Messages:
    6,661
    Likes Received:
    133
    thank you for letting me know. i know it occurs in other breeds, such as PRA and FN in cockers. I haven't looked fully or fully researched all the health problems and tests, but I will once I have the time. :D
     
  16. Blitz

    Blitz PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2009
    Messages:
    19,809
    Likes Received:
    17,345
    Sevenpets, I know you are going about this in a very responsible way but wouldnt it be better to really get to know the breed first. It is not a breed you have owned (or am I wrong there) as a pet and you have no experience of showing or breeding. It all sounds rather ambitious. Could you go and work or help out part time for a breeder and show person and learn it all inside out before you try breeding. How many dogs can you keep and do you want the chance that you might end up with a lot of 2 year old bitches before you get one that even produces you a litter, let alone a litter that are going to meet your expectations.
    I applaud you for your ambition but I do wonder if it is feasible or just a dream
     
  17. comfortcreature

    comfortcreature PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,474
    Likes Received:
    103
    I just want to offer the advice to wait just a little bit (within this year I think) until the EBV program is up and running, and until you find a breeder using it, to consider purchasing a foundation pup.

    "What are EBVs?

    An “estimated breeding value” (EBV) is a statistical numerical prediction of the relative genetic value of a particular dog (male or female) available for breeding. EBVs are used to rank breeding stock for selection, based upon the genetic risk of each dog with regard to one or more specified traits. An EBV therefore is a calculated estimate of heritability for each trait being considered, relative to the EBVs of other dogs in the breeding population.

    EBVs for Cavalier King Charles spaniels are intended to be each dog’s genetic risk of disease – initially syringomyelia and early-onset mitral valve disease – relative to the rest of the available breeding stock."

    More here: Estimated Breeding Values

    Cavalier King Charles Spaniel - Health & Genetic Diseases


    CC
     
  18. SEVEN_PETS

    SEVEN_PETS PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2009
    Messages:
    6,661
    Likes Received:
    133
    I had a cavalier in the family home until 2 years ago so I adore the breed.

    Just so people know, this won't be happening for AT LEAST 5-6 years yet, so got plenty of time to research. this is not happening any time soon.
     
  19. comfortcreature

    comfortcreature PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,474
    Likes Received:
    103
    The latest info I have read indicates that there is some headway on the search for the CM/SM genes and most likely an announcement will be made by the end of the year that a significant gene marker has been identified. That still means a few years for the gene test though, and as this is a polygenic condition there will be no simple answers about how that gene test is to be used . . . . 95% of the breed has CM, which seems to be the most significant predisposing factor to SM identified so far.

    Add in MVD difficulties amongst others and there is a lot of balls to juggle with this breed. It does need more passionate breeders willing to gamble on it. I honestly would prefer to see careful outcrossing embraced, but my philosophy about breeds and breeding tends to easily send me that way. I understand others have different beliefs.

    5 years from now would be a better time, I'm sure, to get into the breed.

    Laura Lang of Roycroft Cavaliers in the USA has been making headway using x-rays to help decide which pups to run on, and then MRIs testing later on. I understand she has now produced pups (after a few generations) with a more "normal" rear skull. She is probably working with others, but her name is the first that pops into my head.

    This is another USA website that has been set up to help breeders visualize what CM/SM is and how they can look at their dogs skulls through both MRI and how that compares to x-ray. MRIs here have historically been exhorbitantly expensive, but now some lo-cost programs have started up, so hopefully we'll see more using MRI.

    Cavalier InfoCenter Syringomyelia xray MRI comp page

    CC
     
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice