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First time breeder looking for advice (Chihuahuas)

Discussion in 'Dog Breeding' started by ChihuahuaMother, May 12, 2019.


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  1. ChihuahuaMother

    ChihuahuaMother PetForums Newbie

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    I have two full breed Chihuahuas - a three year old apple head, long haired boy and a 6 month old dear head, short haired girl.

    I am interested in breed them when my girl is over 2 yoa. I am a huge animal lover and enjoy looking after my babies and would love to get more involved in breeding and potentially growing a business in the future. I am looking for advice from other experienced breeders especially interested in hearing from Chihuahua breeders.

    I am in the UK and would appreciate any info with regards to birthing, breeding laws, vet costs, sale of the puppies and any other relevant information.

    Thank you in advance,
    Kind Regards,
    The Chihuahua Mother x2
     

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  2. lullabydream

    lullabydream PetForums VIP

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    Deer head chihuahuas are really far removed from the breed standard and wouldn't be a good start pointing to breed.

    I wouldn't see breeding as a business, especially if done ethically. Some people never make a profit on breeding a litter, many understand the risk it involves which the main risk involved is losing both mother and puppies.

    If you say you are what you are, a huge animal lover then spay your chihuahua and let them be a pet, your companion. There are so many points in your post which have me worried.

    Chihuahuas aren't exactly far off the ground in the number bred and registered then there are those bred with no pedigree. It's already a breed with few ethical breeders carrying out health tests. I think there are 3 in the UK that health test. Health tests are more than a quick check by a vet to say your dog is healthy.
     
  3. ShibaPup

    ShibaPup PetForums VIP

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    Breeding is a huge commitment - there is a lot to consider. You need to be honest with yourself. Plenty of people breed - not many are GOOD breeders, you should aim to be a good breeder and set yourself apart from others who are only breeding for cash without a care for the future of the breed.

    We all think we have the world's best dogs - it's only natural but breeders need to be able to see the faults in their dogs, have a good experience support group around them to also help them see the good and bad points within their dogs temperament and structure.

    Breeding isn't risk free - your bitch could die and it could change the temperament of both of your dogs. Breeding your dog has no benefits for them.

    - The dogs should both be KC registered or similar - knowing their lineage is helpful in deciding your breeding plans to produce the best puppies. Helps make you aware of any health issues that could be potentially inherited but can't yet be tested for. You'll also need to work out the Inbreeding Coefficient or COI of the future puppies. Having a good relationship with your dog's breeder is very helpful since they will know their lines best and should be able to mentor you.

    - Being a member of the breed club - breed clubs typically have much higher standards and ethics than a registering body like the KC. Get yourself involved with the club, attend shows, let your dog's prove that they are a great example of the breed by winning and taking part in breed and KC shows where they will be judged by someone impartial and experienced with the breed.

    - Health testing - once old enough, get the recommended health tests done for the breed http://www.dogbreedhealth.com/chihuahua-long-and-short-coat/

    If your dog does well at showing, passes the health tests, you have a good experience support network around you - then you can consider breeding :)

    - Finding a stud - you'll likely have to outsource to find the best stud to compliment your bitch. Both structurally, temperament and health wise. It's extremely rare for a good breeder to own both the bitch and stud. If it's your bitch's first litter - ideally you'd need to find an experienced stud with an experienced owner to help during the mating to prevent either of them getting injured.

    - Ensure the bitch is the correct age, she can't be too young or too old for her first litter. Have a good worming protocol in place for her pregnancy. Set up a safe den area away from busy places and other pets, including other dogs in the house for the first couple of weeks - you'll need to take time off work in order to keep an eye on them. Can you afford to do that?

    - A scan to confirm the pregnancy and give an idea for the number of puppies - you'll need to have a vet on standby when she goes in to labour. What if a puppy gets stuck? How long do you leave her to push before a puppy appears before seeking vet help? Do you know how to help start a puppy breathing? Make sure you've counted all the placentas? You'll need to know this and have the answers - that's why having an experienced mentor is vital.

    - Chihuahuas might need a C-section so have enough spare funds available in case an emergency C-section is needed. Can be £2000 in an out of hours emergency. Most insurance covers don't cover breeding expenses either.

    - Socialisation and habituation starts at home with the breeder - gives the pups the best start in life. Puppy culture is excellent for this - https://www.puppyculture.com/

    - Before 8 weeks of age, or older with vet permission the puppies must be microchipped - they must have your details and the new owners details.

    Ideally you'd have a waiting list lined up before the puppies are born with backups just in case people back out - you'd need to vet these homes to ensure they are knowledgeable people.

    Then you have created these lives that you are also responsible for - keep in touch with owners, if they can't keep their dog will you take it back? If you can't, having a good experienced support network in place helps here because they'll be able to help place the dog in a new home.

    Breeding done right - isn't a business. It's a passion, there is no monetary profit.

    If you make profit or breed more than 3 litters a year - you'll need a license from the council - https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/br...ion/faqs-dog-breeding-regulations-in-england/
     
  4. Freyja

    Freyja PetForums VIP

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    There would be no point in advising to show the dogs and let them prove themselves in the ring. Apple heads are desirable for the ring not deer heads and with the number of chihuahuas being shown even at open show level they would be lucky to get placed as their heads would be considered a fault.

    Any pups resulting from this intended mating would never be able to be registered with the kennel club as you are not allowed to register puppies from parents with different coat types.

    To the OP please reconsider breeding from your bitch yes chihuahuas can be self whelping my own bitch self whelped but I also know a woman who is a licensed breeder whose bitches are always needing c sections. This can lead to all sorts of problems such as the bitch rejecting the pups to loosing the bitch and the pups or just the pups resulting in a litter of pups needing to be hand reared.

    Very few breeders actually make money from breeding if it is done properly. Remember chihuahuas generally only have litters of 2 maybe 3 pups a bitch that needs a section at £2000 if it is in normal hours done by your own vet out of hours with the emergency vet would be a lot more. Selling the pups even with 3 pups to sell with unregistered pups you would not even cover your costs. The temperaments of both the dog and the bitch may change for the worse the dog possibly will start to seek out bitches in season.

    If you do make a profit you now have to declare any profits over £1000 and to breed more than 2 litters a year you will need a breeding license from your local council.
     
  5. ShibaPup

    ShibaPup PetForums VIP

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    I provided information on how to go about being a good ethical responsible breeder for benefit of the breed and any future puppies.

    So from my list the owner's dog's wouldn't be a good breeding prospect - but if the owner tried with showing, they could get learning about showing, get to know breeders and owners within the breed club to gain more knowledge and support - perhaps not right now but maybe in the future they can carefully work towards becoming one of the best breeders, going above and beyond for health testing etc... since Chihuahuas are really lacking breeders in that department.

    No point telling people - don't do it. Half the time they aren't going to listen - they want puppies or profit and that's it, so if they are going to do it, they might as well do it well.
     
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  6. Freyja

    Freyja PetForums VIP

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    Have you ever shown a chihuahua and tried to speak to the majority of those that show ? I have both at open shows and chip shows and in all honesty I have found very few people who have the time of day for new comers even at the breed club shows.

    I am just saying there is no point telling someone to show their dog if it doesn't meet the breed standard if they want breed they will anyway doesn't matter what anyone says but showing a dog tha is not breed standard is the best way to put some one off showing for good . Been there done that had it done to myself
     
  7. lullabydream

    lullabydream PetForums VIP

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    Really? But you were new to chihuahuas and showing in the big scheme of thing not so long ago.

    See, as you say the chihuahua breeders are many in the show circle, I don't show although I am very close to a breeder who does show and is well respected and that isn't the precedent at all about new breeders.

    It's amazing though, that you have recommended many times to people to breed without showing and I don't understand the logic at all. Though you never mention health testing either, which some chihuahua breeders do and show to go above and beyond than most.
     
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  8. miljar

    miljar Waitin' on the ghost of Tom Joad.

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    Understandable, as there is no logic - only choices, and people are free to make different ones. Breeding and showing are not directly linked, and showing is just one of several options that you can either take or leave, depending on your own point of view.
    It is all down to people, and not even anything to do with dogs.
     
  9. Freyja

    Freyja PetForums VIP

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    I have owned chohuahuas for nearly 10 years i have shown the for 3 but i have been showing for 20 years and know many people in chohuahuas
     
  10. lullabydream

    lullabydream PetForums VIP

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    Of course puppy farmer yours is to make money out of poorly bred dogs, maybe you should breed chihuahuas too as most breeders in the UK don't consider health testing either...

    Obviously am definitely not definitely not advocating you breeding chihuahuas
     
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  11. SusieRainbow

    SusieRainbow Moderator
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    I'm not sure that this line of argument is helpful to the OP.
     
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  12. ShibaPup

    ShibaPup PetForums VIP

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    It clearly didn't put you off showing though, did it? :p

    I'm sure like everything in life you get people who are helpful and others who aren't so helpful - if there really aren't any helpful people, maybe you could have some time for new comers and give them advice since you've been showing for so long :)

    Hardly life or death if your dog doesn't place - it's a learning experience and a fun day out for the owner and dog to enjoy together.
     
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  13. O2.0

    O2.0 PetForums VIP

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    Showing is not the be all and the end all, true.
    However, anyone looking to breed should at the very least have their dog evaluated by an independent party. We're all blind to our dog's faults to an extent, and all dogs have faults. It's better to know them going in so that you can make a more informed choice about who to pair your dog with for the best outcome for the puppies.

    But showing isn't just about getting your dog evaluated. It's also a good way to start making connections with other breeders, perhaps meet one who would be willing to mentor you, it opens your options to finding other dogs who compliment your dog as far as breeding goes. Again, trying to make sure the resulting puppies have the best shot at health, and good temperament. The more you know about the dogs you're breeding the more informed your choices. This is where it pays to get involved in the show world and meet these breeders, talk to them about their dogs, get their opinions on your dogs and their lines etc.

    Showing is also a pretty decent test of temperament IMO.
    In order to show well (regardless of how the dog places), a dog has to be okay with being in a large crowd, being handled by strangers, and dealing with lots of nerves and business. A dog who handles this well shows the appropriate resilience and soundness of temperament a good pet should display.
    Dogs who wither and can't take the show environment might be too easily upset and stressed out by a typical busy home environment. That matters.
     
  14. Rafa

    Rafa PetForums VIP

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    Surely, the point is that, if you do show your bitch under several different, experienced judges, and she is consistently standing down the line, then she isn't a good example of the Breed and shouldn't be bred from.

    You can even approach a judge on the day and ask his/her honest opinion.
     
  15. miljar

    miljar Waitin' on the ghost of Tom Joad.

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    Just to clarify (for me, if nobody else) then that advice is only pertinent if you are looking to breed puppies to show? Is that right?
     
  16. Rafa

    Rafa PetForums VIP

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    No.

    It is about if you're wanting to breed pups from parents who are good examples of the breed and, hopefully, better than their parents.

    It's all about bringing something to the breed, not how much money is in the till at the end of the day.
     
    #16 Rafa, May 15, 2019 at 8:24 PM
    Last edited: May 15, 2019 at 10:58 PM
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  17. mrs phas

    mrs phas my home, my sofa, my rules

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    But @Rafa you forget to whom you reply
    Of course its all about the money for them
     
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  18. miljar

    miljar Waitin' on the ghost of Tom Joad.

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    Sorry it took so long to reply, but this is just "shooting the breeze" while I have a coffee. The OP is long gone, and so this is a bit of a zombie thread anyway.

    The way I see it is that showing is a game. It is a game for people, and played with dogs. Nothing wrong with that, and there is a lot of fun in having a hobby.
    The rules of the game are that a committee sets a target (the Breed Standard) and then people shoot at it. The one who produces the dog nearest the target gets the prize.
    It's a simple game in theory, but the devil is in the detail.
    The game is run by Breed Clubs, under the auspices of the Kennel Club. These are private clubs, and they set the rules. It is their game, and so they are perfectly entitled to do this - the same as a Golf Club has it's own rules. These rules are very specific with regards to looks - height, length, colours etc - and so lead to all the contenders being very "samey".
    The problem comes, for me, when people insist that the rules actually mean something outside of the game - which they don't. Because one dog happens to be closer to the breed standard than another it absolutely does not follow that it is a better dog. Better for what? would be an obvious question.
    To advocate that only show dogs are suitable for breeding (and then only ones "further up the line") is to deprive people of making up their own minds as to what dog they want. If they are all as you advocate, then they will all be so very similar. It doesn't take much looking to see that people like their dogs in all shapes, sizes and colours, even within the same breed. You have to let people make their own choices, and the more options the better.

    Just thought I would put this out there, but back to work now.
     
  19. Rafa

    Rafa PetForums VIP

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    You're missing the whole point. The point is that they should all be similar.

    We've all seen the damage that is done when people begin mucking about with the Breed Standard and putting their own interpretation on it.

    Pugs, Bulldogs, Frenchies for instance, bred for a shorter nose and flatter face, resulting in no end of breathing problems. Bassett Hounds, Shar Peis and Clumber Spaniels with appalling eye problems, GSDs bred for exaggerated hind angulation resulting in crippled dogs such as the one that took Best of Breed at Crufts a couple of years ago.

    The Breed Clubs write the Breed Standard, which then has to be approved by the Kennel Club and the majority of Breed Clubs want to keep their particular Breed healthy and true to type.

    The problems begin when those such as you decide the Breed Standard doesn't matter and it's okay to breed from inferior and unhealthy dogs.
     
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  20. O2.0

    O2.0 PetForums VIP

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    Maybe things are entirely different in the UK (I doubt it) but no one I've met in the show world even remotely things their dog who walked out with a ribbon is a 'better' dog than the ones who didn't.

    But let's play your game.
    Is it better to have your dog evaluated independently by people who are not connected to your breeding program? Yes, I think it is. We are all blind to our dogs' faults and having someone who is going to be more realistic about assessing our dogs is invaluable information. This doesn't have to be in the form of showing either FWIW, dogs can be evaluated in other competitive and non-competitive venues as well. If you're advertising your poodlewhatsitdors as great family pets, then have the dam and sire doing things like Therapy Dogs work or at least a few obedience titles. If your 'great family pet' can't even get a good citizen or therapy dog certification that tells me something.

    Is it better to have your dog's heath and genetics evaluated via health tests recommended for that breed(s)? Yes, I think that is too. Breeding dogs who are known to have certain inheritable defects without checking to make sure they're not going to pass those defects on is unforgivable.

    Is it better to breed with purpose, with thorough pedigree research, with thought and care? Yes, I think it is. There are already far too many pure and mixed breed dogs in rescue and pounds everywhere who were just produced without forethought. If we're going to be adding more dogs to an already saturated population, yes, I do think it should be done with a lot of thought, purpose, and care. Not just throwing two dogs together because you think the outcome will be cute and garner some extra cash.
     
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