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Eye problems

Discussion in 'Dog Health and Nutrition' started by sarybeagle, Apr 15, 2017.


  1. sarybeagle

    sarybeagle PetForums VIP

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    Hi I'm after some input on people's thoughts on what could be causing Mooky's eye issues

    **of course you're not vets, yes he's been seen twice by a vet in the last fortnight**

    23rd March Moo had an operation to remove two lumps, one was deemed cancerous (in his throat/chest) and a fatty lump was taken from under his armpit to triple check it was indeed a lipomas (fatty lump)
    20170322_162930.jpg
    20170322_172727.jpg
    You're probably wondering what connection there is. To be honest I'm unsure myself but wanted to just give a recent background.

    Fast forward 10 days : Sunday evening we notice his 3rd eye lid across his right eye
    20170405_180443.jpg
    Monday am he had vets for stitch removal. His eye had settled but wasn't 100%. However I asked vet and she kindly dyed his eye and checked for scratches or debris. None seen. Told to keep an eye on it and if continues for a couple more weeks come back. If discharge or anything worsens return before hand.

    On the Saturday I took him back in for a quick chat. It hadn't worsened and he still even today isn't in discomfort, no pawing at face or rubbing head etc. It just looks 'odd'
    Vet nurse said to keep an eye on it still, if he becomes distressed or bothered by it, return asap etc.

    20170407_180340.jpg 20170407_185902.jpg
    It varies thru the day..

    By weds it was almost normal looking most of the day. No 3rd eye lid anymore. Instead his eye lid looked red and blood shot. Again no rubbing etc.

    This afternoon he's almost got a sunken look to his eye, i cant tell if I'm looking for something wrong or it genuinely looks odd. Dh thinks it does too.
    Today he's also been drooling. Always the right side. His eye is the right one also.
    He's 1000% himself aside from the look of his eye and this drooling.
    I'm getting him seen Tuesday regardless of improvement over the next 48 hrs.
    But wondered if anyone had any insight into this.

    Could it be an ulcer? Or worse? It can't be an irritant if only one sided surely, like hay fever ? 20170415_162738.jpg This afternoon.

    Any ideas? We are stumped and worried obviously. Anyone's dig had similar? X
     
  2. Sled dog hotel

    Sled dog hotel PetForums VIP

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    There is something called Horners syndrome the third eyelid pops out with that and it can happen suddenly, other symptoms seem to fit possibly too?

    What is Horner's syndrome?
    [​IMG]
    Horner's syndrome is a common neurological disorder of the eye and facial muscles. The condition usually occurs suddenly. The most common clinical signs of Horner's syndrome are:

    • Drooping of the eyelids on the affected side (ptosis)
    • The pupil of the affected eye will be constricted (miosis)
    • The affected eye often appears sunken (enophthalmos)
    • The third eyelid of the affected eye may appear red and raised (prolapse of the third eyelid, conjunctival hyperemia)

    More info on full link
    https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/horners-syndrome-in-dogs

    As it can affect the facial nerves too that may account for the drooling as well perhaps.

    Edit to add just checked other sources of info on horners syndrome and there are mentions of drooling too on various ones, if only one eye affected then drooling from that side of the face, so that seems to fit too. So could be your problem. It does seem to mention it can be idiopathic sometimes (unknown cause) or sometimes connected to something else, and it can self right but there is also mention of a specific type of drops that can help too on that link and is also mentioned on others when I checked if drooling is known with it.
     
    #2 Sled dog hotel, Apr 15, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2017
  3. SusieRainbow

    SusieRainbow Administrator
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    Poor lad has been in the wars. No experience or advice to offer but I really hope this can be easily sorted for him, he's such a sweet looking boy.
     
  4. Ceiling Kitty

    Ceiling Kitty Hides away from much through humour...

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    +1 Horner's - is his pupil on the affected side smaller?
     
  5. squirrel605

    squirrel605 PetForums Member

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    Poo dear. Hope he feels better soon.
     
  6. Lurcherlad

    Lurcherlad PetForums VIP

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    Poor Mooky :(

    Could it be a reaction to him feeling out of sorts after the surgeries?

    Hope you can get to the bottom if this, or he just picks up himself.
     
  7. sarybeagle

    sarybeagle PetForums VIP

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    SDH I think you maybe on to something here!

    Horner's can result after nerve damage/trauma. I wonder if the op is connected then. Possibility for nerve pathways to be disrupted is a given.
    Would explain the sudden onset. No itching or irritant. His bottom eye lid is most definitely dropping and has an almost Bassett hound look to it-where the weight of the excess skin pulls it down.
    Which I can't tell gives the illusion of smaller eye or genuinely is smaller/sunken.

    He's such a sweetie. He's left his stitches alone, no come of shame or similar needed at all. Healed beautifully, took it all in his stride, including a week of missed out dog walks with the walker. He just sat with me in the garden instead.

    I'll book him in with vets Tuesday regardless, even if just to confirm Horner's. I do wonder if eye drops may help?
    When i first saw his face droopy i panicked he was having a stroke :( it looked so awful.

    Thanks people :) i knew i could rely on advice here x
     
    MiffyMoo and Mum2Heidi like this.
  8. Sled dog hotel

    Sled dog hotel PetForums VIP

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    From what I understand the specific drops mentioned on the link and others can help with the symptoms so maybe worth asking about.

    What is the treatment?
    Most cases of Horner's Syndrome will resolve spontaneously. It is important to treat any underlying disease. There are several diagnostic tests that will be performed to determine if there is an underlying cause in your pet. Symptomatic treatment may include phenylephrine drops placed in the affected eye every 12-24 hours.
     
  9. sarybeagle

    sarybeagle PetForums VIP

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    I'm pleased I considered the op on his neck with this.
    I do believe it's too much coincidence that he has an op and 10 days later this happens. *In no way do i blame the vet, as with every surgery you risk complications and negative side effects.

    The lump turned out to be a very odd fatty lump. It wasn't usual size/location or shape. She was 90% sure it would be bad news. Poor soldier. He's so good and placid.
    download_20170415_150224.jpg download_20170329_191712.jpg
    20170407_161404.jpg

    The best friend a girl could wish for.
     
  10. Ceiling Kitty

    Ceiling Kitty Hides away from much through humour...

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    What was the nature of the lump on his neck - I know you said it was fatty but possibly cancerous. Do we know what type? Was it in his skin or deeper?

    The sympathetic nerves that supply the eye run much higher, through the deep tissues of the neck and through the middle ear.

    The facial nerve (which can cause facial paralysis if damaged) doesn't involve the neck, but again runs through the middle ear.

    If it is indeed the case that both nerves are affected then this cannot, by definition, be idiopathic. I'd be worried about middle ear disease.
     
  11. Ceiling Kitty

    Ceiling Kitty Hides away from much through humour...

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    It's best to avoid applying phenylephrine therapeutically if possible, since repeated doses can result in systemic absorption and could cause adverse effects.

    Since the eye symptoms of Horner's itself are generally not an issue, treatment of Horner's specifically is usually unnecessary unless the third eyelid protrusion is really badly affecting vision. Addressing the underlying cause is the way forward.

    I will add though that, if there IS facial nerve involvement, dry eye is a concern so a Schirmer Tear Test would be indicated and lubricant drops may be needed.
     
  12. sarybeagle

    sarybeagle PetForums VIP

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    Lump was deemed lipomas - that's all she kept saying to me and it was benign. Just not a shape she had encountered before. It was a solid disc shape, deep in tissue and wasn't free moving like most fatty tissues it was a marble like 'thing' (in my terms)
    20170321_175749.jpg
    Between finger and thumb here.
    Inscission is on his right hand side.
    Would it take 9 days post op to appear? Or more sudden? Part of me says would be there from waking up. Part says no maybe swelling caused internally after stitches dissolve causes issue?

    He has the tiniest ear canals I've ever encountered! I do regularly check though due to build up of wax and in his younger years (before us) he had mites etc.
    So middle ear disease?? I'll go Google. Could fit the profile?
    Today his 3rd eye lid is all but retracted. But his lower lid is fallen /droopy and almost has a small 'gap' between eye and eye lid. I worry dust may enter? Or it dry up?
    His eye is sunken. I've studied it and studied it. I don't think it's the lower lid illusion. I'll take a photo tomorrow am.
    He's still absolutely ok in himself bar the look. He needs an eye patch ;) I'll call the vet tomorrow for advice and booking him in. X
     
  13. Ceiling Kitty

    Ceiling Kitty Hides away from much through humour...

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    Enopthalmos (sinking of the eye back in the socket) is a prominent symptom of Horner's.

    I would normally expect nerve irritation or damage resulting from surgery to be present rapidly. In my experience, it is present as soon as they wake up. I suppose swelling could result in irritation later on, but I would be very surprised if surgery confined to the skin and subcutaneous tissue came close enough to the nerves to cause any issues. They run quite deep within the neck.

    If this is indeed Horner's syndrome and not a primary eye problem, then the nerve damage could be present anywhere from the brain to the space immediately behind the eye. The sympathetic nerves to the eye have a very complicated course. They exit the brain down the spinal cord, but break out from the spinal cord around the level of the forelimbs. From there, they pass through the thoracic cavity, up the neck, through the middle ear into the eye. Problems anywhere along this pathway can cause Horner's syndrome.

    If there is facial nerve paralysis as well, it would point to the middle ear. But the facial nerve may be unaffected - I must say he doesn't look particularly wonky on that side in the photos but I appreciate it could just be unapparent across a screen. The drooping eyelid (ptosis) is a feature of Horner's - but facial nerve paralysis would also result in a droopy lip, poor blink reflex, and a dry eye and sometimes dry nose on that side.

    If there is Horner's alone and the facial nerve is okay, then the middle ear remains a possible site of the problem, but you'd need to rule out problems in the neck and chest too. The phenylephrine eye drop test SDH mentioned is used to localise the rough site of the problem, then further tests such as X-rays may be indicated to investigate further once you know a bit more about where you're looking.

    Hope he's on the mend ASAP!
     
  14. sarybeagle

    sarybeagle PetForums VIP

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    He's got Horner's syndrome. She thinks it's idopathic but I believe it's to do with his neck surgery, too much of a coincidence to not be that. But irrespective of the cause it's what he has (in no way to i blame them etc).
    Usually allow up to 8 weeks to heal, think we are 4 weeks in. If continues/worsens he needs MRI of brain :'( the drooling and struggling to eat on right side is worsening.
    We discussed his accident in night and would be a really bizarre connection between that and then seizing. But it's MOOKY. It could be true for him lmao.

    He also has inflamed inner ear but too deep down to be caused by the Horner's as the nerve runs nearer the outer ear. So poor sod has that as a bizarre twist. Bet it's Bella licking out his ear on Saturday.....
     
  15. Sled dog hotel

    Sled dog hotel PetForums VIP

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    Hoping it is just the idiopathic horners and it will right itself given a bit more time.
     
  16. squirrel605

    squirrel605 PetForums Member

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    AW. Hope the dear friend gets better soon.
     
  17. sarybeagle

    sarybeagle PetForums VIP

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    So! Mooky's eye has improved and only goes droopy when over excited or hot/worn out.
    However, it's been reversed!
    His right side of the face is now too tight!?
    I'll try get a photo but it happens periodically.

    His jowl is the easiest to notice, his right lip/jowl is higher/closer to his face and his left hangs normal like a beagle and gives the lovely chops look I love. 20170730_170955.jpg

    Not a great angle I know, but can u see his left top lip/muzzle hangs lower, the classic beagle mouth.
    His right isn't as low. I know I can see it as I know every hair and mark on that dog, I'll also aim to get a more head on shot.
    But his eye is also smaller. It no longer droops under the eye lid. It's squinty and if u drew a line down the middle he'd have two v separate looks.

    He's still gorgeous though. 10.5 years old and still a big puppy at heart <3 20170721_170946.jpg
     
    Lurcherlad likes this.
  18. sarybeagle

    sarybeagle PetForums VIP

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    PhotoGrid_1501601009464.jpg

    See, his left side is normal, the right side is tightened or shrunken up (OPP side in photo)
    It's so weird. From drooped to tightener??
     
  19. Sled dog hotel

    Sled dog hotel PetForums VIP

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    Has he got a swelling on the side of his face the side it is higher? Maybe on the top jaw/side of the face in line with the nose,
    it might be the way the lights hitting him in the photo or the angle he is at but it looks like there might be a swelling. common causes are often tooth problems especially tooth root abcesses, even if he has pretty prestine clean teeth they can still get fractures and things from eating hard things like chews and bones, and if the fracture goes below the gum line it can often let bacteria into the root of the teeth and you can get swellings and abcesses forming. Kobi did it to one of his, and the worse teeth to seem to cop fractures or breakages when eating hard things seems to be the upper carnassial a lot of the time.
    If he has got a swelling on the upper jaw/side of his face then wondering if the outward swelling is hitching up the loose skin on his normally floppy jowls that side, sort of taking up the slack and a sort of lower face life effect if that makes sense.

    Dogs also have several salivary glands too one of which is the zygomatic salivary glands as well as others dotted around the head area, the zygomatic is in that sort of region, and salivary glands can get blocked or infected and fill up so they can tend to swell too.
     
  20. sarybeagle

    sarybeagle PetForums VIP

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    Hi SDH he hasn't any swelling in the mouth or nose, I think it's the light. After seizure vet checked him all over and no issues with face aside from this shrinking of eye and tightening of the skin on his right hand side. It's puzzling.
    The vet suggested that he has now got a droopy left hand side, but it's not, it's his right side has pulled back/up from the drooped muscles he had last month.

    I've tried finding face on photos, with his mouth shut..... Impossible!!!
    But I've got this PhotoGrid_1502483536775.jpg

    It's not massively different but I can see it. I can't not see it. I don't understand to go from a Bell's palsy effect to the opposite. Unless his nerve has been damaged and now the muscles are contracted. I honestly don't know.
     
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