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Ethical Breeding Question.

Discussion in 'Dog Chat' started by kayz, Aug 18, 2009.


  1. kayz

    kayz PetForums VIP

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    I thought I would post this here to get more answers.

    I have been reading 'Your Purebred Puppy' I got from my Mum. It is an American book. On the first page it poses the question 'Should dogs that consistantly require C-sections be bred at all?'. It is talking about bulldogs but I'm sure there are others.

    It got me thinking about it and I don't know what I think the answer is. If people stop breeding Bulldogs then we lose that breed.

    What do other people think of this question?
     
  2. Spaniel mad

    Spaniel mad PetForums VIP

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    Thats a good question but i cant answer
     
  3. Nicky09

    Nicky09 PetForums VIP

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    If people actually try to breed the lines that can self-whelp in breeds like bulldogs or try to breed it back to where they can then its ethical. But a lot of the breeders don't care that their dogs can't mate or give birth naturally and are happy to breed deformed dogs as long as they can waddle around a ring fighting for breath and win ribbons and they can get money from those and I love bulldogs.
     
    #3 Nicky09, Aug 18, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2009
  4. Natik

    Natik PetForums VIP

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    there are alot more problems with the bulldog than just c-sections.... that poor dogs suffer...alot :(
     
  5. DevilDogz

    DevilDogz Guest

    People arent going to like this but hey...imo a dog that cant give birth naturally should not be bred from!
     
  6. I'm kinda tending towards the line of if the bitch cant give birth, then she shouldnt be bred from :(

    I'm not talking about emergency complications that can happen in any whelping, i'm talking about breeding from a dog who has previously had to have a section - i dont think they should be bred again.

    Surely some bitches self whelp? - therefore they should be the ones bred...

    oh its hard ot say what i mean, and my brain isnt in gear - i know what i mean, sorry if this has come out as rambled garbage... xx
     
  7. Nicky09

    Nicky09 PetForums VIP

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    There are some self- whelping lines but they're few and far between and probably don't do well in the show ring what with the smaller heads and wider hips. So people don't breed them
     
  8. kayz

    kayz PetForums VIP

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    Why do Bulldogs suffer so much? Is it bad breeding? Or have they always suffered?
     
  9. Natik

    Natik PetForums VIP

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    no, the original bulldog was an lovely great dog.... now it only has more health problems than anything and often surgery is required to give the dog some sort of quality life :(

    Not enough that they often cant give birth they also often cant even mate thats why artificial insemination is needed... when dogs cant mate due to their anatomy than they shouldnt reproduce IMO
     
  10. Nicky09

    Nicky09 PetForums VIP

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    Bulldogs suffer so much because idiots bred them to have really short legs and flat faces so they can't breathe or walk properly. The original bulldogs were much more agile and could breathe freely they had to otherwise they died in the bull baiting pits.
     
  11. kayz

    kayz PetForums VIP

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    There is someone near me with one and whenever I see it, it seems to be struggling to walk and is really panting.
     
  12. lauren001

    lauren001 PetForums VIP

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    Bull dogs were originally bred for bull baiting, which was a terribly cruel sport.
    However, I cannot imagine any of today's bull dogs being able to keep up with a bull never mind pinning it to the ground by its nose.
    Bull dogs have gained this shape and need to give birth by c section, by the influence of breeders looking for extremism, which is unfortunately their downfall and the downfall of many breeds.

    Extremism brings health problems and suffering, there is no doubt of this and deliberately continuing to breed any animal that cannot give birth naturally apart from "artificially" is cruel in my opinion.
     
  13. Nicky09

    Nicky09 PetForums VIP

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    I've only met a few and they're all the same apart from the few breeders who actually try to breed healthy dogs.
     
  14. Natik

    Natik PetForums VIP

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    i met a few too...i felt so upset seeing them trying to breath and struggling to walk :(
     
  15. sallyanne

    sallyanne Guest

    For me it's about WHY the bitch had to have a C-Section,just because they have had one doesn't automatically mean they will have another.

    My old bitch had her first litter without any problems,second litter was an absolute nightmare with a puppy getting stuck in the birth canal requiring vet intervention,not because she was unhealthy but because the puppy was big.

    There are some Bulldogs which are healthy and all breeds have health issues,Ethical breeders only breed maybe three litters in the bitches lifetime anyway,so myself if I had a bitch which required two c-sections I would have her spayed and not breed from her again.

    I always ask our breeders if the pups mum was self whelping.

    Where do you draw the line ? If the dogs are healthy in every other way but have a C-Section for one reason or another does it suddenly make them no good as breeding stock ?
     
  16. kayz

    kayz PetForums VIP

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    No I don't think it would suddenly make them no good. I mean you wouldn't stop a woman who had a C-Section from having more kids.

    I honestly don't know the answer myself. I really don't know what to think.
     
  17. dimkaz

    dimkaz PetForums VIP

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    well, British bulldogs is just an example, there are so many more mastiffs and bull breeds that suffer the same fate. the standards for the breeds require that they have a "massive head", this has only changed in 2009 in the UK, few months ago and only for a few of the breeds that suffer of recurrent c-sections.

    another breed is the Neapolitan mastiff, lovely dogs a giant that has not equals...but with this obsession with head and wrinkles the dog now is the caricature of itself...have a look at the evolution of the species Neapolitan/cane corso...as i remember when i was a little kid (70s and 80s)
    http://www.cane-corso.it/storianotizieimportanti.htm
    ...not too long ago hehehe and how they are now (just google mastino napoletano and cane corso...)! the first is a massive head plenty of wrinkle with a body that doesn;t move, the second is a glorified boxer!!!

    well, where is the ethics?

    shall we talk of functionality? health? more...?

    one think is there to be said: i don;t know whether is a good thing or a bad one: when i was a kid, dogs where used mainly for their purpose (and to some extent in the mountains of southern Italy still are...) by people that value the dogs for the work that they do and farmers and shepherds can't - for financial reasons - and won't - to preserve their reputation - breed or continuing to breeding faulty lines...(and this is a good thing)...but then when something like a complication happens, most people do not go to the length we go... why go to thevet and spend three months' salary (yes, a good salary in the mountains of southern Italy is still at around 1000£ or 1.3k€ pcm), to have c-sect and post ops...so i guess that selection still work somehow... but then again...the ethics in all this? a shepherd or a farmer, would say, how good is it, if i have to take food off the table to pay that amount of money to save a bitch, that genetically would not survive...???

    well...just thought of throwing this on the table!
     
    #17 dimkaz, Aug 18, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2009
  18. lauren001

    lauren001 PetForums VIP

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    So breeding these dogs who need so much intervention is a product of how rich we have become.

    BTW I have never seen a bull dog that looked or sounded particularly healthy.
     
  19. Natik

    Natik PetForums VIP

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    the WHY with the english bulldogs lies often with the size of the pups heads and shoulders which makes it difficult for the bitch to push through...
    I think the bitches are also prone to overheating during birth due to their short snouts.

    ... incidents during birth can happen with any breed but reasons with the english bulldogs are often due to their anatomy.
     
  20. Johnderondon

    Johnderondon PetForums VIP

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    The responsibility for the state of the bulldog can be placed squarely at the feet of the showring.

    From the canine athlete that could take on a bull...

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    to a parody that can barely drag itself up the garden path.

    [​IMG]

    If there is still a place for the bulldog today then make the breed again 'cos this one is broke.
     
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