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Endorsement of pups question??

Discussion in 'Dog Breeding' started by claire & the gang, Mar 25, 2011.


  1. claire & the gang

    claire & the gang PetForums Senior

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    My female pup has just been collected to go off to her new home. The new owner passed all the vetting questions & i spoke to a lady she dog sits for who was willing to give her a reference.

    Everything seemed great but a parting comment has left me feeling a bit duped & rather annoyed, to the point i rather regret my decision.

    The pups were both endorsed & she is sold under contract as such. However just before she drove off she`d said so if i ever decide to have pups i can just phone you & have the endorsement lifted. I said yes provided the conditions outlined have been met, health testing, age suitability etc.

    She then said just before leaving that her other dog is a cross border/whippet & probably wouldn`t breed her to a pure cocker but would prefer to `mix it up a bit`. I was gobsmacked to say the least.

    I know the endorsement only covers registration of progeny. So therefore should she in the future do this i can do nothing. Do any breeders on here have stipulations in contracts about such things. Or what are peoples views??:(
     
  2. Sleeping_Lion

    Sleeping_Lion Banned

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    The only thing you can do is stipulate in the contract of sale that the pup won't be used in any breeding programme involving cross matings, but only with another suitable pedigree dog of the same breed, and that's *if* criteria re lifting endorsements etc are met.

    I do puppy contracts for people occasionally, and, although they aren't apparently legally binding, you have a better chance if you ensure you word everything correctly so there's no doubt, and explain every bit of wording to them, of making them stick to your requirements. You also have a good chance of anything like this being discussed beforehand, so you will maybe get an idea of what their intentions are.

    Unfortunately that's not going to be much help in this instance :(
     
  3. From my understanding of contracts, etc., with regard to dog ownership, they are pretty much a waste of time, as once the dog has left you, there's not much you could do and if you took a person to Court, it would cost you thousands and no guarantee that anything would be solved.
     
  4. Sled dog hotel

    Sled dog hotel PetForums VIP

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  5. GoldenShadow

    GoldenShadow PetForums VIP

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    I have to say I see a scarey amount of popular breeds like labradors/cockers round this way who are not kc registered. They put it in capital letters on the adds and just have them priced a bit below market price. For a labrador from health tested parents and of a decent standard round here I wouldn't be surprised to pay £500+ at all, the non kc reg ones are usually advertised anywhere below £400. Dogs seem to go for quite a lot down here compared to where I lived before and sadly people play on that.

    I don't know what to say in regard to your situation, except perhaps if you are doubtful or having last minute thoughts, go with your gut don't feel bad quizzing etc. I hope it was just a passing and pretty random thought the person had, not a genuine one :(
     
  6. casandra

    casandra PetForums VIP

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    Did you not ask her if she had any other intact animals in her home or ask if she planned to breed? Unfortunately there is not much you can do, if she is going to cross breed, she wont need the endorsements lifting. You can implement an amendment to your contract to go against such activities in the future.
     
  7. claire & the gang

    claire & the gang PetForums Senior

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    Casandra...the dog she already has is also a bitch so she wouldn`t be using her current dog for breeding.

    I know there is little i can do in this case & hopefully it was just a passing idea she had.

    My contract as it stands was worded by a solicitor but i do know, it would cost alot of money & may not get anywhere should they be contested. But i just feel by using one it may make potential owners think twice about breaking the terms & i am atleast trying to protect pups i have bred to the best i`m able.

    If & when the time is right for another litter i will put in about `crossbreeding`. It didn`t cross my mind about that until this cropped up. I`m just thankful my other pup is staying with me.
     
  8. rocco33

    rocco33 PetForums VIP

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    I think you'll find the contract has little standing in law once ownership has passed to the new owner and an endorsement only prevents a litter being registered but does not stop the owner breeding whether purebred or cross. I think you will just have to hope that she takes the contract at face value and upholds it because I suspect it won't hold up in a court of law.
     
  9. Oh dear. I have no advice that can help accept give her a call and voice your concerns as the breeder that not only do you feel disheartened by her comment but you would be deeply upset if she used the dog to breed cross or ped without your consent.
     
  10. CheekoAndCo

    CheekoAndCo PetForums VIP

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    If it were a pup I'd sold and someone said that before leaving then I'd be taking the pup off them and giving them the money back. Sadly too late for that now and not sure how legal that would be anyway lol! Anyone getting one of my pups would be grilled when it comes to breeding and if they didn't like it they know where the door is!

    Get in contact and voice your concerns to her.
     
  11. cinnamontoast

    cinnamontoast Sois pas chiant, chéri.

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    I doubt there's anything you can do to stop her breeding to whatever she wants, unfortunately. She does not have to stay in touch:(
     
  12. shazalhasa

    shazalhasa PetForums VIP

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    This is a worry for most breeders. I'm having to ask for vet references or do home checks as I have too many people on my list that sound nice.
     
  13. swarthy

    swarthy PetForums VIP

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    I am a little concerned when you say

    "as she drove away she asked about lifting the endorsements" - didn't you cover this off at the time of sale?

    While I appreciate that you can't stop her breeding unregistered pups - if it had been broached much earlier then something may have slipped earlier.

    When I put endorsements on my pups, I get a signed copy of EXACTLY what I require for the endorsements to be lifted - the puppy owner has a dual signed copy, and so do I.

    If you don't have this, the owner could just say to the KC - "the breeder didn't tell me" - and they will lift the restrictions.

    In fact it's a mandatory requirement of the ABS to thoroughly cover off anything about endorsements and export pedigree restrictions before the puppy leaves.

    The failure to get this right can be a complete nightmare on both sides of the fence.

    I want to use a dog for my next litter - excellent pedigree - successful showdog - hips and elbows scored with excellent results, PRA and EIC clear -and has EXACTLY the qualities I need for my bitch - and it looks like we have missed the boat because the breeder is asking £500 to lift the endorsements - the breeder wasn't even present at the time of sale - but in this instance she appears to have the upper hand - very frustrating.

    So at the moment, I am experiencing first hand the other side of endorsements :(
     
  14. claire & the gang

    claire & the gang PetForums Senior

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    The endorsements & the conditions of lifting them where covered at the time of sale (specifically written conditions & she & i both have copies signed by both of us) ...at which point she said she would be having her spayed, she intends to train her for field trials which was why she had chosen to get this breed. This is why in my first post i said i felt i`d been duped as it wasn`t until she had the pup in the car, signed my contract after reading & going through it & had paid in full. She left the " i`m not sure if i want pups in future but if i did i`d mix it up comment" as a parting gift. Given the fact that the deal was done i didn`t know how i`d stand with regards to changing my mind at that point.:mad:

    i know there is little to nothing i can do now other than attempt to keep in touch & share my feeling on this with her in an attempt to reason why i don`t agree with it. i was really trying to find out how others manage these situations
     
    #14 claire & the gang, Mar 25, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2011
  15. swarthy

    swarthy PetForums VIP

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    My apologies for misunderstanding :eek:

    I suspect it's one you are going to have to chalk up to experience - are you sure she wasn't teasing (i.e. warped sense of humour) as she would surely know the restrictions are irrelevant if she is going to produce cross breeds :(
     
  16. claire & the gang

    claire & the gang PetForums Senior

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    Its fine;) i was in a tizz when i first posted & probably didn`t explain clearly.

    I don`t think she was joking, also i think that at this point she probably didn`t put 2 & 2 together & realise that the endorsement is irrelevant in the case of having cross pups...or maybe i hope she doesn`t:)
     
  17. swarthy

    swarthy PetForums VIP

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    Probably a combination of that and me not reading properly :eek:

    Fingers crossed she continues to think that to breed whatever the endorsements have to be lifted - although if she does meet the criteria and still wants to cross breed (and doesn't realise the implications etc) - where do you stand then?

    It's an interesting one actually - if you draw the bit about breeding to KC registered dogs of the same breed into the contract- it could make those not in the know realise that they can produce crossbreeds irrespective of the endorsements :confused: (I've confused myself now) - this breeding lark doesn't get easier does it - if it's not one worry it's another :rolleyes::

    ETA - I do draw into my contracts for bitches that they have to work with me to find a suitable stud - although I realise that any future litters there is nothing I can do - and with my dogs, I stipulate they must have an experienced mentor - I did have initial problems with one of my bitch owners - she had been upfront about her desire to breed from the off and did everything by the book - then she decided she wanted to use her mates dog because he was nice!!! - in the end - she had her neutered and didn't bother - and pretty much all my bitches on the ground have been neutered bar one, and I suspect the owner is half hearted about actually breeding - as the bitch isn't getting any younger in terms of having a first litter !
     
    #17 swarthy, Mar 25, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2011
  18. Dazadal

    Dazadal PetForums Member

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    I have endorsed the 23 pedigrees of my two litters, will do so in the future and this is a recommendation of our breed clubs code of conduct. I tell my potential owners from the outset and they have choice to have one of my endorsed puppies or not.
    I have lifted one endorsement and refused to lift another (along with my reasoning) and havent had a problem. I do feel for breeds that suffer in the hands of puppy farmers like Dalmatians this is a positive, if small step a breeder can make to prevent KC registered puppies falling into the wrong hands.
    I hope all goes well with your new puppy owner :)
     
    #18 Dazadal, Mar 25, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2011
  19. rocco33

    rocco33 PetForums VIP

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    If you don't think she was joking then I suspect you are right - she doesn't realise that endorsements only apply to kc registration not breeding.

    Just out of curiosity - is she already involved in gundog work? I must admit that someone completely new to gundogs who claimed they wanted to train their dog for field trials would send a few alarm bells. Field trials are the ultimate in gundog work and really not something newbies go straight into. It's possible she doesn't know what she's talking about, but it's also possible she's trying to make up a story.

    I think you will just have to hope she still carries on being ignorant and would definately try to stay in touch on good terms. As the saying goes - keep your friends close and your enemies closer

    PS - Endorsing kc papers is not something that is done in working circles - certainly in labradors so I don't think spaniels would be any different so I suspect she's just unaware - let's hope it continues.
     
    #19 rocco33, Mar 25, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2011
  20. claire & the gang

    claire & the gang PetForums Senior

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    Yeah Rocco..she is new to the gundog world, she was actually double quizzed by my mentor who has lots of gundog experience & she`d said she was looking at agility OR field trials to her. She`s been reading a book apparently & has recently bought a croft up in the highlands. I did point out to her that its not as easy as reading a book due to the level of discipline required by the dog/ handler lol.

    Also the fact that working cockers are high maintainence, stubborn lil monkeys at the best of times & probably not the best for a beginner, but once trained properly are devoted & excellant dogs. I suggested if she progresses with this that she should get a trainer to help them both.

    I just feel that at the time she made all the right noises & seemed an ideal home for my girl, now i wish there are so many more things i`d asked. Can you ever ask enough get enough references to be certain without doubt?

    I strived to do the best for them from the outset, from health tested parents to raising & socialising them..no corners cut...now i`m feeling slightly like i may have let this one down.:(
     
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