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Dog Problem - Old Dog/New Dog - A long story

Discussion in 'Dog Training and Behaviour' started by palodia, Jul 1, 2009.


  1. palodia

    palodia PetForums Newbie

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    Dear Fellow Pet Owners,

    I have a dog problem and I seek your advice.

    About one and half years ago I used to live in a gated community. There were many stray dogs within the community and everyone used to feed them regularly. One day, a female dog gave birth to a female puppy (Putti) right in my backyard. I felt a strange connection with Putti and I began taking care of her. I used to give her milk every morning and I used to play with her daily in the evening (she slept all through the morning on my porch). She was known as my unofficial pet in the community. I never brought her inside my house though. I also did not get her vaccinated or bath her or give her nutritional supplements due to my complete lack of knowledge regarding pets in general at that time. I also regularly fed the other dogs too but not quite as much as her.

    When she was 6 months old, I had to move to another city (job-related move). I felt that she would be more happy with her pack than with me, since I never brought her inside the house and I would have to do so in the new city due to the lack of community housing. I also felt that she would not be able to adjust well in a household environment given that she used to freely roam all over the community (~25 acres) hunting peacocks and monkeys with her pack (her father and mother included).

    About 8 months after I moved to the new city, I was made an offer to come back and I took it. By now she was 1 year and 2 months old. I could not return to the old community but I rented a house nearby (a 5 minute walk). I began visiting her regularly. I was starting to realize my mistake within the first week itself. She was no where near as healthy as when I had left (8 months ago). She was almost an adult dog by then. There were 4 more puppies born during that time and the feeding order had changed. She no longer had access to enough food and she was also at the bottom in the pack order. She was weak and scared.

    I immediately began looking for a new house where I could bring her and adopt her as my pet. During one of my regular visits in the second week, I was shocked to find out she had given birth to a male puppy (Chutti). I immediately took Chutti home knowing fully well that he could not survive without my help. I adopted him and got him vaccinated. Three months passed by very fast and Chutti was now rather big. I now wanted to bring Putti also home.

    I did so exactly 4 months after I brought Chutti (I had to get my fence heightened so that Putti would not jump and run away initially). My problem starts here! It has been 48 hours since I brought Putti home and Chutti is baying for her blood. Chutti lived with me for 4 months and he considers me his master and Putti also recognizes me (I was paying her daily visits during these 4 months) and considers me her master but both of them cannot stand each other for even a second (in close proximity). I was assuming that Chutti would recognize his mother and my goal of saving Putti and Chutti would be fulfilled and this story in general would end well but I had never expected what is happening now.

    She is currently confined to the house and Chutti is staying outside (in the yard). Chutti is his usual happy self in the yard and only gets aggressive when he sees Putti. I bring her to the yard 5 times a day (at 3 hour intervals) for peeing and pooping (I tie Chutti to a tree so that he can see her but not attack her; he cries like a wolf the entire time she is outside; she does not care much). She has no problems as long as I am standing right next to her. There is a window near the door where they stand and bark at each other (with teeth gnawing) for up to 5 minutes and then go to sleep for a few hours.

    Questions:
    - Is it possible that Chutti (who is growing bigger by the day; he is currently a little smaller than Putti) would never recognize Putti as his mother (I believe Putti does recognize her son because she makes the high pitched noise that female dogs make to call their puppies)?
    - Is it possible for me to somehow make them accept each other and live together happily?
    - Is this situation causing unbearable stress on Putti? If yes, how can I help her?
    - Chutti is also not eating properly. Is this due to the stress on him due to this other dog that he sees? How can I calm him down?
    - What will happen if I let Chutti inside the house and let them deal with the issue themselves? Is this an acceptable course of action?
    - Putti is constantly trying to jump over the fence (when I bring her to the yard), trying to run away. How can I make her stop doing this? Will she ever adjust to this new environment and accept it as her home? If yes, how long would it take (days/weeks/months)?
    - Putti also has problems adjusting to her belt (she never wore one until now). Will she adjust to it soon?

    I cannot and will not take Putti back just to ease my life and also make Chutti happy. That is not an option. I cannot live my life happily knowing that Putti may or may not have fed properly during any given day. I hope all of you can understand this.

    I will be looking forward to your reply.

    I have also contacted a local kennel club and hired a trainer to sort out this issue. He is due to visit tomorrow. I hope he does some magic and solves this problem.

    Thanks.

    Regards,
    Palodia
     
  2. goodvic2

    goodvic2 PetForums VIP

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    HI. Welcome to the forum. You have done a wonderful thing helping these dogs out, they can't say thank you, but they are grateful. Which country are you in?

    Firstly, I am not sure whether they recognise each other as being related.

    I myself have recently introduced a new dog to my pack and I had fights to start off with. My first two rescue's were street dogs from Greece, so I have an understanding of what these sort of dogs are like.

    Have you done much lead walking together? Walking is the best way to create a pack, you need to do it several times a day, for as long as you think suitable. The pup prob thinks the house is his and therefore is behaving like this.

    for now, you need to ensure that anytimes that they see each other is happy and positive. If that means that for now, this is only possible on walks away from the house then you need to do that. Take treats on the walk and get them to sit and give them a treat together. Gradually you can move this to the house at the end of the walk.

    You need to do this slowly, slowly. by allowing them to see each other and one of them reacting the way you describe (tying to the tree), you are creating tension. It is almost winding up the pup and will possibly cause the other dog to become fearful.

    Unfortunatley this is going to take time. I do not recommend that you put them together, at all at first. Eventually, they will be able to sort it out and they will establish their own heirachy. But it would be dangerous to do so now.

    Ao to sum up..... Walking, walking and walking. If the pup is territorial outside in the garden, then bring him inside on a lead and walk him around the house. Try as much as possible for them to eat together, as this is another bonding act. However, it can also bring out bad behaviour, so you do need to manage it and if you don't feel comfortable, then don;t do it.

    Seperating them and especially when they can see each other, will make things worse. The only time they should see each other or come into contact with each other is on positive occasions. WALKS. if you feel that one or both of the dogs might bite, then start off with muzzles and you can remove them after a few minutes of walking.

    With the dogs that used to fight..... I used to muzzle them and leave them alone in a room. I do not suggest that you do that at the minute, but once things are a little better, maybe you can try that.

    Because of where your dogs have come from they will have strong survival instincts and therefore you need to be aware of this. You must ensure that you are always seen as the boss/pack leader, otherwise you will have no hope of fixing this.

    The eating could be stress, if no better once things in the house are calmer then see a vet. The jumping over the fence is prob because 1) she is a ferril type of dog 2) she is stressed because of the environment. When you say she hasn't adjusted to the belt, do you mean coller? If so, just make sure it is not too tight, she will get used to it.

    Do not expect miracles, and take it slowly, every time they see each other MUST be a positve experience.

    I have not had a fight now for 3 months and whilst my two are not the best of friends, they are so much better.

    Good luck and remember pack walks!

    x
     
  3. palodia

    palodia PetForums Newbie

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    I am in India.

    No, not even once. I doubt if I can do this alone since they will surely try to take a bite out of each other. Can I get someone else to hold one of the dogs a bit far away when walking?

    O.K.

    O.K.

    O.K.

    What happened in this case? Did they simply stare at each other?

    There is absolutely no problem in this regard. Both of them obey my commands without any problem. Even when they are barking against each other through the window, a simple hand signal from me is enough for them to pause for a while.

    Yes, I meant the collar. She adjusted to it overnight.

    Thanks for your reply. :)
     
  4. goodvic2

    goodvic2 PetForums VIP

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    This is probably reason why you have this problem. You must introduce the dogs on neutral ground before bringing them home. I understand that you thought because they are a family that they would get on. You MUST set aside a minumum of 2 walks a day. If you have someone to help then that is great. If not introduce muzzles (you cannot just put these on, there is a way of doing it so the dog accepts it) that way you don't need to worry. I used to put one dog in the porch and bring the other dog from the back. I would then keep one dog at arms length and bring the other one out. Max did try to lunge and bite Sammy, but I used my feet to push him out the way. But once we had started moving they were fine. Dogs can only do one thing at once, if they are walking along, they are not thinking of biting! The longer you leave it, the more tension is going to build and the worse it will be. Until you have achieved this outside on a walk, you will not be able to put the dogs together at home.

    It always starts with a stare. Eventually when you can get the dogs together in the house, then this is the first thing you look for. A dog generally fixates on the subject and then the barking/lunging and aggressive behaviour begins. A look or a glance is ok, but when it continues that is when you need to distract the dog.





    This is the most important thing, once you have the respect and trust, then with the right knowledge you can achieve anything with your dogs. Unfortunately, because you did not introduce the dogs correctly, you are suffering as a result. BEfore a new dog is brought into the home, the first thing you do is take all dogs for a long walk, with you leading the way. That way, they get to know each other on neutral territory. You should then walk the new dog around the house, only in the areas in which you want it to go. Then the back garden. It's not to late, start again today.

    Good luck x
     
  5. palodia

    palodia PetForums Newbie

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    O.K.

    Yes. This is exactly what I had thought. :(

    O.K.

    I will do this right away.

    O.K.

    Thanks again. :)
     
  6. palodia

    palodia PetForums Newbie

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    Update:

    The trainer came today and we made a lot of progress. He used muzzles at first and diagnosed the problem. It was starting at Chutti and not Putti as I had assumed. Putti being the older one had enough manners and socializing skills and she had no problems getting the right signals from the trainer. Chutti was just being a territorial male and the trainer calmed him down (albeit with a strong hand). He is due to visit every day this week in order to completely train Chutti.
     
  7. goodvic2

    goodvic2 PetForums VIP

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    Great news - well done. x
     
  8. palodia

    palodia PetForums Newbie

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    Thanks. :)
     
  9. palodia

    palodia PetForums Newbie

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    Today was a wonderful day. They are actually tolerating each other now. :)

    The trainer somehow got them to sniff each other up close and they instantly became friends!

    Chutti is thrilled about his new playmate. He is jumping all over Putti playfully and she has no problems with it.

    The only problem remaining is that Putti is still trying to get out of the compound. The trainer said that she may be in heat and that I must watch her for another couple of days.

    Thanks again for your advice and encouragement. It helped me get through these 4 difficult days. :)

    I will keep you posted. I will also send you some snaps tomorrow.
     
    #9 palodia, Jul 2, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2009
  10. goodvic2

    goodvic2 PetForums VIP

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    That is fantastic news. Are you planning on getting the dogs neutered? it will help.

    Keep me posted x
     
  11. palodia

    palodia PetForums Newbie

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    Thanks. :)

    Yes. This is the top most priority of mine. The very last thing I want is for them to breed. Chutti is already inbred (his father and the Putti's father is the same dog!). A litter from these two cannot be healthy.

    I will. :)
     
  12. astro

    astro PetForums Junior

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    I have been reading about the street dog problem in India - apparently about 80 years ago Mahatma Gandhi spoke of responsible dog ownership.

    I was surprised to read about your use of a dog trainer - I didn't realize there would be that resource, but I'm glad it exists.

    You deserve the support of everyone here on Petforums. I applaud you for what you are trying to achieve. Sometimes it only takes one person to make a difference.
     
  13. goodvic2

    goodvic2 PetForums VIP

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    hear, hear! We are actually getting posts from all over the world, today along, India, China and Italy. I guess we Brits are doing something right.

    x
     
  14. palodia

    palodia PetForums Newbie

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    Yes. It is a very sad state. I have even seen large street dogs (a german shepherd among them). I guess people feel that they can discard a pet just like they discard waste.

    There are plenty of trainers now a days but you must ask a good vet for recommendation as they know best.

    Thanks. :)
     
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