Welcome to PetForums

Join thousands of other pet owners and pet lovers on the UK's most popular and friendly pet community and discussion forum.

Sign Up

Does ethical BYB exist? Breeding unregistered cats...

Discussion in 'Cat Chat' started by RaggieRags, Jan 31, 2019.


  1. RaggieRags

    RaggieRags PetForums Newbie

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2019
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    1
    Hi everyone,

    I feel I have done extensive research into breeding but one thing I don't understand is the furore of anger towards, what I would consider, ethical 'BYB'. Hoping someone can help me understand.

    I have two 'ragdoll' cats. The reason I put that in inverted commas is that one of them is GCCF certified, the other is not. One female, one male. I bought the first 'ragdoll' female before I knew about registration etc. She is not registered. For all intents and purposes, she is a ragdoll. Her seal-point colouring, behaviour, all align with what you would expect from a ragdoll cat. I am considering purchasing my third ragdoll cat from the same 'breeder' I bought her from.

    The 'BYB's house is clean, tidy and the kittens are given free reign. They are fed good quality wet and dry food, vaccinated, wormed, deflead and vet checked before being sold at 12 weeks. Both queen and stud are health checked against PKD, HCM and FIV. The 'breeders' only allow their queen to have one litter per year, this will be her second. So the only issue appears to be that the cats aren't registered to breed. The only issue I can see with this type of breeding is:

    1. Not health checking parent cats (which was and is done in the case of my 'breeder' and 'ragdoll'.)

    2. Taking money from GCCF and TICA registered breeders, as they are often sold at a much cheaper price.

    Could someone shed some light as I am torn whether or not buying a cat from the same unregistered breeder would be a bad idea.
     
  2. chillminx

    chillminx PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2010
    Messages:
    29,782
    Likes Received:
    26,509
    Hi @RaggieRags and welcome :)

    I am not a breeder but it sounds to me as though the "BYB" breeder you refer to, is following the very same standards of care/health checks etc as breeders who register their cats would follow. So s/he is an exception to the more usual BYB, who e.g. may not bother with genetic health checks etc.

    I wonder why your breeder chooses not to get her cats registered ? It would seem to be to her advantage to do so, in terms of her reputation.
     
    #2 chillminx, Jan 31, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2019
    Jansheff and claire8234 like this.
  3. OrientalSlave

    OrientalSlave Shunra Oriental Cats

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2012
    Messages:
    14,747
    Likes Received:
    10,318
    When you brought your 'GCCF certified' cat, did you discuss wanting to breed from him or her with the breeder?

    If your cat is on the inactive register, breeding from him or her means you brought a cat as a pet only, and were not honest with the breeder about your intentions. Whatever else the pros & cons, just about all cats used by BYBs can be traced back to this sort of duplicity.
     
  4. Summercat

    Summercat PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2017
    Messages:
    8,104
    Likes Received:
    19,673
    Having a breeder who registers their cats does not automatically make them 'ethical' nor does the opposite.
     
    buffie likes this.
  5. RaggieRags

    RaggieRags PetForums Newbie

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2019
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    1
    I did indeed discuss breeding and as a result my GCCF boy is not active.

    So, dishonesty to the original breeder being the biggest issue with breeding unregistered cats in this way then?
     
  6. RaggieRags

    RaggieRags PetForums Newbie

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2019
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    1
    My BYB breeder has also kept in touch with me for the year since I've had my female 'ragdoll.' They text me often asking for photo updates, ask how she is getting on, giving advice for vaccinations, food etc. I have no such contact with the breeder of my boy.
     
  7. NFC slave

    NFC slave PetForums Senior

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    721
    Likes Received:
    1,105
    surely an unregistered or cross breed cat will only ever produce moggys, why would our go to a BYB in preference to a breeder? Are you hoping to breed, and how will you advertise these kittens. It's good that you have found someone producing kittens in clean conditions, but why not get a registered third cat? By the way, I'm not a breeder so am only commenting as a semi interested member
     
  8. RaggieRags

    RaggieRags PetForums Newbie

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2019
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    1
    At which point does a cat become a 'moggy' though. Putting aside the ethics of lying and duping the original breeder, if you have two healthy non-active ragdoll cats that produce a litter... that litter is then 'moggy'? Even if both the queen and stud were from ragdoll bloodlines?

    The reason why I am considering buying from the same breeder is because I know she genuinely cares for her animals. We are in weekly contact and I know that she also contacts all of the kitten's owners from the litter. I don't get contact from my boy's breeder anymore. I have really built a relationship with the breeder of my girl. And as far as her being a moggy goes, she looks and behaves just like my GCCF boy. If you put the two side by side you wouldn't know that one was a 'moggy'. As far as I am concerned, I have two ragdolls. Maybe that is me being silly, or precious, or naive.

    I always have the welfare of my animals in mind, and would not condone somebody breeding cats in horrible conditions, registered or not. I am not a breeder myself, but I do think that some breeders won't allow cats to be active purely because it will encroach on their stud/queen/litters. When I was first looking for my two, I wasn't sure whether or not I wanted to breed. I know of several breeders who admitted to me that they will not allow their kittens to be active because they have a monopoly over the registered ragdoll breed in the area.
     
  9. gskinner123

    gskinner123 PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2010
    Messages:
    3,948
    Likes Received:
    1,885
    I think you were quite fortunate to find such a caring breeder who, it would seem, doesn't register at all and is breeding outside of any affiliation with the cat fancy, showing, etc. Given all you've said, I would be very likely to go back to that breeder for another kitten and I say that as someone who has registered every kitten I have bred over 34 years.

    I honestly do not think that breeders are reluctant to let kittens go for breeding due to "keeping out the local competition" and if they are they kidding themselves. For every breeder who will not sell kittens for breeding there are a dozen who will (often unregistered).
     
    chillminx and buffie like this.
  10. vivien

    vivien PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2009
    Messages:
    10,620
    Likes Received:
    10,434
    You have been lucky to have found a BYB that takes the time to see how your kitten is. My W Ragdolls came from ethical GCCF breeders. Both no longer Breed. One of them went on to breed Ragamuffins, and simba’s breeder unfortunately passed away. I still keep in touch with Simba’s breeders husband so he knows how he is doing also I still keep in touch with Tigaks breeder. Before I came to this forum I didn’t know what a BYB was. I bought a beautiful blue colourpoint Ragdoll that was an oops litter. He wasn’t registered. I thought nothing of it. After all I always bought my GSDs from the paper too. I called him Bailey. He was so beautiful. He had health problems from day one. I lost him just as he was coming up to his first birthday to FIP. I was devastated. I was talking to a breeder on a Ragdoll forum and she introduced me to here. I would never knowingly go to a BYB. But in the end the choice is yours.

    Viv xx
     
  11. huckybuck

    huckybuck Cat Chat Friend

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2014
    Messages:
    20,181
    Likes Received:
    58,508
    It’s my understanding that part of being a registered breeder is that you try to improve the lines of your cats. You can trace where they came from (pedigree history) and you maintain the minimum standards required by the registering body.

    IF this BYB is as good as you say and she is and flowing the same rules if not better than registered breeders I cannot for the life of me see why she wouldn’t want to be registered herself. It doesn’t cost a huge amount.

    Personally I have been stung by a registered breeder; Tica not GCCF. So I do agree they exist and you do have to be really careful. But equally I would never now buy from a breeder who wasn’t registered with a governing body as I simply don’t agree with people being encouraged/allowed to breed with absolutely no comeback.

    I would consider a cat with no pedigree history and no registration a moggie. And we have enough of them in rescues looking for good homes.
     
    lorilu, chillminx, claire8234 and 3 others like this.
  12. OrientalSlave

    OrientalSlave Shunra Oriental Cats

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2012
    Messages:
    14,747
    Likes Received:
    10,318
    It's just one issue, and counts a lot to me. Do I want to buy a kitten from someone prepared to pull the wool when they brought their cats? No.
     
    vivien, Arny, Rufus15 and 1 other person like this.
  13. white_shadow

    white_shadow PetForums Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2008
    Messages:
    168
    Likes Received:
    173
    With a little tweaking......it could be - at least - a little better idea.......


    Delayed weaning reduces behavioural problems in cats
    Date:
    September 15, 2017
    Source:
    University of Helsinki
    Summary:
    Early weaning increases aggression and stereotypic behavior in cats. Based on the study, the recommended weaning age of 12 weeks should be raised by at least two weeks. Delaying weaning is an easy and cost-efficient way of improving the quality of life of cats.

    Early weaning increases aggression and stereotypic behaviour in cats, shows a new study from Professor Hannes Lohi's research group. Based on the study conducted at the University of Helsinki, the recommended weaning age of 12 weeks should be raised by at least two weeks. Delaying weaning is an easy and cost-efficient way of improving the quality of life of cats.
    LINK: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/09/170915165217.htm
    .
     
  14. Rufus15

    Rufus15 Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2015
    Messages:
    5,487
    Likes Received:
    6,698
    It has got absolutely nothing to do with taking money away from registered breeders.

    Registered breeders make a loss on their litters, if this person is selling for cheaper then I would question what corners they're cutting.
     
  15. RaggieRags

    RaggieRags PetForums Newbie

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2019
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    1
    I agree the lying is wrong, but I can sympathise with genuine people who are interested in breeding who get laughed out the door or are refused active kittens on little to no grounds. I do know some ragdoll breeders (from personally speaking to them) who will not sell active kittens to people living in the same area as them. I don't think thats true for the majority of registered breeders, but it certainly is for some.

    Pardon my potential ignorance, but I don't see how all registered breeders are making a loss on their litters. I think it depends what factors you are taking into the price. For example, if I spent £1000 on an active ragdoll queen, I wouldn't take that out of my breeding costs. As far as I am concerned, I bought her to be part of the family as a queen and then a neutered pet to have for the next 15 years. Ditto for food, litter, toys etc. I actually find it really sad when I see retired queens for sale or being re-homed at 4/5 years old.

    I can't see the corners my breeder is cutting as she does everything that a registered breeder would do. The only exception being her queen and stud are not registered.
     
  16. Jonescat

    Jonescat Don't do nothing. Do something.

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2012
    Messages:
    7,159
    Likes Received:
    7,256
    Not just the lying,although that is bad enough. Why is she breeding? There is no shortage of cats, and therefore you need to justify why you do it, and she can't be doing it to benefit the breed this way. So why is she doing it?
     
    lorilu, chillminx and Rufus15 like this.
  17. vivien

    vivien PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2009
    Messages:
    10,620
    Likes Received:
    10,434
    The reason pedigree pets are non breed pets. Is because they are not fully up to breed standard. I.E the markings could be wrong, the ears are too far apart or not wide enough apart. Most people start their life first of all waiting for that special cat. Then alongside the breeder showing their cat in some cases. Then they are mentored by the breeder. There is no way an ethical breeder would sell a breeding Tom to a novice breeder. 1 queen is not enough for a full Tom. Then there is the testing fror any problems the cat could be carrying. HCM heart defect PKD kidney problems. I am not a breeder so I don’t fully know these things. But I do know from being friends with my breeders how much hard work goes into breeding. Believe me a cat with HCM and PKD can have very short lives. Then there is the registering. That costs the breeder a fair bit too. Then there are the injections. That is why breeders don’t make any money from their cats.. your BYB would of had to sign a contract saying she would neuter her cats. Simba was nuetered before I got him. But Max ( moggy) Yogi (Maine Coon) and Tiga all were neutered by my vet. I am sorry if you don’t like what I am writing but after being bitten by a BYB I am very against them. It’s not a case of letting 2 cats getting together and 9 weeks later you (if your lucky) get some kittens. I blooming hard work.

    Viv xx
     
    Rufus15 and huckybuck like this.
  18. gskinner123

    gskinner123 PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2010
    Messages:
    3,948
    Likes Received:
    1,885
    Without wishing to sound confrontational, I don't really understand the point of the thread. It is obvious that the OP was and is happy with the breeder, has a good grasp of the potential differences/pitfalls between registered/non registered and has confidently expressed contrary opinions when others have raised potential issues and/or reasons why they would not support this type of breeder

    Hence why I said - go back to the breeder for another kitten.
     
  19. lymorelynn

    lymorelynn UN Peacekeeper in training
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2008
    Messages:
    35,634
    Likes Received:
    34,965
    Just as there are bad breeders amongst those who register their kittens there can be good breeders who have not gone into it from the beginning with registered cats but have done everything ethically otherwise.
    My main concern would be why the initial cats weren't registered active in the first place. Those who sell active registered boys may be few and far between but I don't think it is too difficult to get an active girl - there are some breeders who do not care who they sell to and don't follow up with mentoring etc.
    If the OP is happy with the situation and trusts that the kittens have been brought up with all of the relevant health checks then perhaps it isn't that bad an idea to get another kitten from that breeder.
     
  20. OrientalSlave

    OrientalSlave Shunra Oriental Cats

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2012
    Messages:
    14,747
    Likes Received:
    10,318
    If you are talking about why some cats are shown as a pedigree pet rather than in the pedigree situation, it might simply be the cat has gone as far as it can in the pedigree section but genuinely enjoys being shown.

    It's not possible to be definitive that 1 queen isn't enough for a male as like people, they vary. Some want a new girl every week, some are not that bothered and would be happy with one a year. They also change over time.

    DNA testing for PKD (if appropriate) and HCM (if appropriate) is a one-off cost and is just over £50 for two tests if one doesn't belong to a breed club on Langford's list. If both parents have tested negative then their kittens don't need to be tested. There are only DNA tests for HCM Maine Coons, Ragdolls and Ragamuffins, and PKD isn't appropriate to all breeds.

    What does cost money is scanning for HCM, again if appropriate.

    Registering GCCF if one doesn't have a prefix is a maximum of £23 (a litter of one kitten), so pretty small beer compared with the other costs. If one has a prefix the maximum is £14 (again a litter of one), so even less of an issue.

    What really, really costs money is looking after kittens to at least 13 weeks. Most BYBs rehome at 8 weeks, so they are not paying for vaccinations, probably not for worming, nor for chipping (though not many 'ethical' breeders do that), nor for 5 or more weeks of food and cat litter - most kittens eat more than many adults, and input = output. The quality of the food may well be skimped on as well.

    If a section is required it's normally out of hours and that will be £££ - almost or over ££££ at some vets.

    Buying active registered cats usually costs more than buying for a pet or show neuter, and owning a male gets expensive if he's to have a decent stud house. £1k onwards unless one is capable of building one's own and has time.
     
    gskinner123 and vivien like this.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice