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Discussion in 'Dog Chat' started by ouesi, Nov 21, 2012.
This expert says they dont. And I agree
Do Some Dogs Need a Heavier Hand? « Wilde About Dogs
I guess it depends on the definition of heavy hand. Some dogs definitely need more rules/boundaries/ leadership and to have those enforced more regularly than others- the type who you give an inch and they take a mile. Enforcing their rules etc does not have to be heavy handed though!
No, I don't think you should be heavy handed with a dog. Not physically.
I think you could be heavy handed with rules and things, such as a dog that is DA or Reactive.
I don't know really.
I dont think I would resort to physical violence with a dog but if you refer to be heavy handed as being stricter and sticking to NILIF then I think that some dogs/breeds do benefit.
This is my dog to certain degrees
i credit him with massive intelligence and a willfiul spirit- fair enough that's his character, but i defo work very very hard with him to get to a place where we're both happy and fulfilled.
Defo no heavy hands (in the classic thinking of this) but huge amounts of creativity, patience and bonding required.
My friends have dogs that were practically born as perefct companions and in complete adoration of their owners- I don't think mine doesn't adore me... but he certainly has a great sense of humour about how to train me
Um... are we discussing the article and the points made in it or are we just offering up opinions?
I was posting the article kind of hoping folks would read it
I don't think physical punishment or forcibly dominating the dog is necessary but I do think some dogs need rules and boundaries more than others do.
I agree, that's Molly too.
I'd challenge the author of the piece in as much as they are examining the term 'red zone', they also make assumptions and challenges with the word 'heavy handed'. That implies aggression and I think the phrases 'firm hand', 'set up for success' are more appropriate.
Dogs I have loved in the past can wander past a potentially difficult situation and not give a wag about it, Molly does worry so I have to predict and 'set her up for success'. A far more sympathetic way of thinking than 'heavy handed'.
eh? you did not say article- read- discuss- so i think I read the article and gave my opinion on the subject, not so much the content........ my bad I'll go sit in the corner..... LOL :001_tongue:
*points finger in overly dramatic fashion*
(my discussion would go something like; hitting bad, tasty treats good!)
LOL youre right, I didnt specify
I was hoping for a discussion on the article, written by a well respected expert on dog and wolf behavior.
I figured weve had enough of member opinions with all the other threads
Not that I dont like hearing opinions, or sharing mine!
What points would you like to raise Ouesi?
Lexiedhb, just mainly trying to debunk the myth that the more aggressive the dog the harsher you have to be in your handling.
Debunking the idea that positive training is nice n all but for real aggression and real problem behaviors you have to use a heavier hand.
And finally, debunking the myth that positive trainers dont deal with the OTT difficult dogs.
I also like how she points out that aggression is largely an issue of trust. Not lack of leadership, not lack of the dog knowing his place. Which has certainly been my experience. Dogs who trust you, other humans, other dogs, that situation, dont feel the need to make themselves heard through huge aggressive displays and physical confrontations.
One of our dogs was assessed at the shelter and deemed too aggressive to adopt out. Through some connections we managed to get him out, kept him in the barn before allowing him to interact with our dogs and our kids, and little by little taught him to trust. He is now a therapy dog who knows his signals of discomfort will be heard and doesnt feel the need to escalate in to anything more. As someone who did find herself with her hand firmly held by this dogs teeth, I shudder to think what would have become of someone who tried to dominate or get confrontational with him.
I think what you say is mostly true- it kinda makes sense that you dont fight fire (dog aggression) with fire (handler aggression towards the dog). You can see the link between handler getting wound up, and thus dog becoming more wound up/gobby/aggressive etc
I think some dogs need more competent owners, not more heavy handling. There are certain breeds I do not have the experience or nouse to own and may never do, and there's certain breeds that are very biddable and easygoing so much easier to handle in that respect. Neither requires strong handling, just different levels of knowledge imo.
I dont think there is a myth surrounding the fact that purely positive trainers deal with OTT dogs, they do- but like anything not ALL of them do,having heard several people be told "sorry we cant help you" (including myself after a time).
There are good and bad trainers like with any other profession, ones that use treats and no more superior to ones who use praise etc- just a bit different- which is handy, as every dog is also different!
I think you nailed it with the bolded! So true!
Some dogs are just tremendously resilient and no matter how many times you screw up they brush it off and move on. Honestly most dogs are like this... Then people hold them up as an example in favor of rough handling.
Like the guy down the street who has beaten every dog he owns in to submission and yes, they all slink up to him and fawn all over him in appeasement gestures. He just sees that they love him. No they dont you dunce, theyre appeasing the heck out of you hoping you wont boot them in the gut!
Then there are those with whom you make one or two mistakes and its all over, youll never again have that dogs trust. Part of me wishes this guy would end up with a dog like mine who doesnt suffer fools, then part of me wishes he wouldnt because hed just shoot the dog
Oh... I would consider both treats and praise positive training
And toys, and social rewards, and real life rewards....
I also happen to know that many trainers use treats and are decidedly not positive trainers!
I was just saying that all trainers are different, and the use of differing methods is not necessarily a bad thing, as all dogs are different too.
Some also use.... erm how do you want to call it "mild negatives?" I dunno, like ignoring, back turning, maybe squealing- as you would to stop mouthing- categorically bad? I dont think so.