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Discussion in 'Dog Breeding' started by carol, Nov 3, 2007.

  1. Jenny Olley

    Jenny Olley PetForums VIP

    Nov 2, 2007
    Likes Received:
    I think there are two seperate issues here one is pts a health pup that is the wrong size, shape, colour, markings usually pet homes can be found for these, often at a reduced price and with restrictions or no KC reg, I know this does not completely prevent breeding, but it is less likely.

    The other is whether a pup that is healthy in all ways apart from its disability should be kept alive. In an ideal world there would be wonderful loving homes waiting for all these pups, unfortunately while their are people who will offer homes to these dogs, there probably just aren't enough of them. The rescue centres and breed rescues are always full of dogs.

    It would be a very difficult decision to make, luckily for me I have never had to make that decision. I have however come accross a few people have have ended up with more animals than they know what to do with, this effects the owners and the animals quality of life.
  2. Eolabeo

    Eolabeo Guest

    sorry carol,

    for some reason it went from looking and talking about your lovely dallys to getting dogs put to sleep coz of disabilitys lol.

    back to the dallys :D
  3. Jenny Olley

    Jenny Olley PetForums VIP

    Nov 2, 2007
    Likes Received:
    I'm sorry you misunderstood the last paragraph in my post, the people I am talking about are not breeders. They are kind hearted people who with the best of intensions take on dogs or cats who no one else wants, usually from rescue centres. Once you have a name for taking on these animals, the rescue centre will ring you up, when they have an animal they will find difficult to rehome. These animals will of course be neutered, these people are not contributing to the problem, they are trying to help, but they can only do so much.
  4. Brainless

    Brainless Guest

    This is why most people are not suited to be breeders, sometimes hard decisions that are in the best interests of the breed and the dogs themselves need to be made.

    When there are plenty of healthy dogs being put to sleep for lack of homes how can it be morally justified to foist unhealthy/disabled ones onto rescue when someone decided to breed. It is entirely the breeders responsibility and you either keep them yourself or put them to sleep. there are worse things than death you know.

    A dog is an animal and is entitled to lead a normal life. That is hard enough for a dog to fit into our world as it is when perfectly healthy and with all it's faculties. It is hard to put to sleep a baby pup, but at least you know they have had a good and stress free life.

    We have had a Bull Terrier Staffie cross come to our training classes that is deaf, the owner can't cope with him despite the best of intentions,a nd he is an accident waiting to happen.

    This is not a happy situation, but a likely outcome for a deaf pup, better a short and sweet life than all the stress it will go through learning to live with a disability on top of all the ordinary things it needs to adjust to to live with us humans, many who are very loving but lacking in expertise.

    People need to put emotion aside and look at the bigger picture.
  5. Eolabeo

    Eolabeo Guest

    Disabled or not i think it has a right to live just as much as a non disabled dog.

    My dog is deaf and she deffinately is not a accident waiting to happen, one being im a very carefull owner and i have learnt and know everything to look out for when keeping a deaf dog and the do's and don'ts.
    yer she would be an accident waiting to happen like any hearing dog would be let of the lead ( obviously she can't be let of a lead ) with the right knowledge and perfect owners i think a disabled dog will be just as fine as a normal non disabled dog would be.
    My deaf dog has never seen a training class in her life and she is 100% deaf as a doormouse but i put 100% into training and teaching her myself and my god its payed of a treat, she does everything i signal her to do and sometimes i even think she can read my mind coz she sometimes does things i want her to do by herself bless her and if i decided to get a dog again, ild go out to ashelter and look for a deaf dog thats for sure. they al deserve a chance normal or disabled :).

    here are a few pics of my *disabled girl* they can enjoy life to with the right ownership :)
  6. Brainless

    Brainless Guest

    Has your dog been deaf all her life though? It takes a very special dedicated and knowledgeable person to bring up a deaf puppy, and sadly there are very few of those. The breeds mentioned are very lively and large ones that are a handful to bring through puppy hood as it is.

    As a breeder I would not risk someone getting it wrong and the pup suffering. As said before there are plenty of healthy dogs put to sleep through lack of homes, is it morally right to keep alive ones that are already disadvantaged in their place, and at higher risk of not fitting into a human family?
  7. Eolabeo

    Eolabeo Guest

    Yes my dog has been deaf all her life, and i got her at 12 weeks of age, she is 2 years old in june, i fell inlove with her the moment i see her and from that day on i dedicated all my time into her, she was my first deaf pup ( not bred by myself ) and i did'nt know a thing about them but i can say i got intouch with alot of shelters for deaf dogs, one being a shelter who owns 16 deaf dalmations run by 2 ladys who was so very helpfull and gave me so much advice on what to do and not what to do, i suppose i was lucky she picked up very well on all the tips i was given and she is an angel, so eager to please.

    i do myself think it is not right to sell or give away deaf dogs but unfortunatly there are deaf dogs being bred and sold and its those poor souls i think should be given a chance to lead a happy life like my ethel if put in the right hands under the agreement of getting the dog spayed/nutted and returned if they can no longer keep it, bit like a normal dog should be treated really.

    There are so many backstreet breeders out there, it dont matter how much we preach and go on because at the end of the day its still happening and will continue to happen unless some sort of law can stop this ( har har ) and dogs like these will always pop up somewhere along the lines, unless they are out of hand like some hearing dogs can be then its them that really do need to be pts however hurtfull it is.
    If its a pup then i think it has a gooder chance of any hearing dog to live a happy normal life if placed in the right hands.
  8. Brainless

    Brainless Guest

    Quote: "....i do myself think it is not right to sell or give away deaf dogs ...."

    So you do agree that it is responsible for breeders where deaf pups are likely to crop up to not sell them, the only alternative is to put them to sleep if you do not wish to keep them yourself, the chances of finding those special homes are slim, especially when you have the rest of the litter to think about too.

    I am fortunate not to be in a breed where a serious congenital health issue is likely, but I would not rear any puppy that could not have a full normal life.

    I have had to take the decision to Put to sleep an unthrifty pup who despite extra TLC and supplementary feeding was not gaining any weight, and it was obvious that something serious was wrong.

    I could have ketp it alive for several weeks and then had to make an even harder decision, as it is I let her go at 11 days.
  9. Eolabeo

    Eolabeo Guest

    Yes i do think they shouldnt be sold but its the irresponsible breeders that are still selling these poor sods for easy money so they are still about, its them sort i think should be given a chance because its not their fault they was bought into this world and its not fare to kill them because they are deaf.
    again in the right hands i think they will do just fine, no doubt there will be the odd one or two that won't be ok, bit like normal hearing dogs so them sort should be pts.
  10. jan-c

    jan-c Guest

    A difficult one this. Though all reason tells us that we should do the right thing sometimes the heart rules. Though I have been in dogs for over 30 years now and consider myself to be a very responsible person I was presented with a terrible decision some years ago when an 8 week old puppy I had bred suddenly went off his back legs. Until that time he had been a normal puppy running with the rest of the litter.
    My vet refered me to a specialist as he could offer no explanantion.
    The initial examination revealed that it could be a number of things, some of which were cureable and some that were not.
    The specialist conducted a number of tests including an MRI scan and sending muscle samples to another specialist in San Diago.
    We took him to a hydrotherapy pool twice weekly whilst waiting for results and through all this he remained a happy little soul and took everything in his stride. All tests resulted in negative results and as he grew it became evident that he was not going to improve despite our best efforts. I had to make the heart rendering decision to have him put to sleep at 7 months.
    Do I regret keeping him alive? No..... not at all, he was not in pain and at first there was hope that he would improve, I would not have passed him on to anyone else he would have stayed with me.
    Would I do it again under the same circumstances? No I would not......knowing the outcome I would have the pup put to sleep.
  11. Brainless

    Brainless Guest

    Ah but the post is about the breed clubs requiring hearing testing of pups and that those found to be bilaterally deaf should be put to sleep by the breeder.

    The breeder is the one who should be making the hard decisions as they chose to breed.

    The choice should never be that of the poor unsuspecting owner or a rescue. These poor dogs often end up in rescue because they are not easy for the average person to cope with. No ethical breeders stock should ever end up in rescue unless they themselves are dead or too frail to take care of their own pups.
  12. Eolabeo

    Eolabeo Guest

    Yes i know that, under the bull terrier code of conduct all deaf bullys should be put to sleep.
    But there are people that are breeding deaf pups that are not members of the bull terrier club, like backstreet breeders who don't give a s**t whether they are deaf or not, as long as they are filling their pockets up with money they don't care, so all im saying is its them sort of pups that should be given a chance.

    I am not one of them unsuspecting owners of a rescue, i knew what i was letting myself infor and im so very glad i did decide to bring her home because my deafy is by far one of the best dogs i have ever owned in my life, and btw all shelters will assess all dogs so no doubt they will know if a dog is deaf or not, therefor the new owners will not need to make that hard decission to have their dog pts because they will already know what they are taking on, the new owners may well find they have taken on more then they can handle there4 making the decission to take it back, But that can happen with normal hearing dogs aswell, right?.

    As for someone buying a kc line bred dog that is suppose to be healthy in every way only to find out it is deaf, now that i don't agree with, if the breeder decides not to pts the pups then the breeder should let new owners know the dog is deaf.
    But as i said, backstreet breeders don't care and it is them that realy are adding to this fault that so many experianced breeders are trying to breed out because they are selling them to anyone and it is just going to carry on and on, luckily i am not one of these people who would breed my female and add to the problem.
    Anyways im going to put an end to this debate coz you have your views and i have mine :) and to tell the truth we really aint getting nowhere, the only thing we are doing is making this thread longer and longer.
    so good night.
  13. Brainless

    Brainless Guest

    It sounds like we agree, but your misunderstanding me. We both agree that those badly bred litters should not be bred, but the discussion was about the ethics of the PTS code by the breed clubs, which we both agree though heartbreaking is right.

    There have been several rescue dogs come to our training classes that were not diagnosed at the rescue centres, they were just thought to be unruly bull breeds and collies. the shelters simply cannot routinely hearing test teh dogs that come in.

    I don't think anyone could face putting to sleep a pup of several months old, if this has to be done by a good breeder it is done at five or six weeks old whilst still in the litter.
  14. Eolabeo

    Eolabeo Guest


    Having read your post it was a very sad sittuation to be in with your puppy, you tryed but there was no cure, i would of done the same thing if it was me, and if there was a reapeat of a puppy like that then no doubt you would have it put to sleep because you would of learnt through experience that the pup will not lead a normal life or maybe there is a chance that pup will not be cured..

    If that happened to one of my dogs ( no matter what the age ) i would have it put to sleep because it would be cruel to keep them alive wouldn't it.

    yet with ethels deafness its a completly different matter, she is ok in everyother way except she cannot hear.
    she understands my signals and well as a hearing dog understands words.
    why put them to sleep? if you are a very carfull owner like i am then why? would you kill a deaf person coz they cannot hear? they learn signals to get by in life.
    Yes there may be some that are hard work but thats the same as hearing dogs right?

    I just so wish i could have you all meet ethel, she would suprise you with her very cleverness, Yer she works on site smell and vibratin but my god she works that well, you know, she is so good with her site smell and vibration ive even had alot of my sons mates say to me, *are you sure she's deaf* or *are you sure she cannot hear a bit*?
    i tell them no, she's 100% mutton jeff, she just works her s s v's brilliantly, and it gets better and better with time to the point she looks like shes not deaf.

    i gave my ethel the chance to live a happy normal life and gawd shes living it to the full here ( she's my brat ) :D All im saying is why can't other deafys be given the same chance?
    Don't give me that the shelters are always full up with dogs because that is no excuse, how many of them sheltered dogs are deaf?
    bet your lucky to find one deafy in there on a regular basis.
    so please don't say a dog thats deaf is pushing a hearing dogs nose out of joint because there is no room in the santuarys.
    yer thy may not be room in the santuarys but its not for the amount of deaf dogs being in there is it.
    thats why im saying give em a chance.

    Brainless, you wrote that shelters don't baer test the dogs and that they may think a deaf dog is a naughty dog, Surely it don't take a bloody genious to work out when a dog is deaf.
    i could spot a deafy a mile away lol.
    Obviously shelters cannot offrd baer test, so why not do a few basis ones of their own with every dog that comes in? not hard is it :).
  15. jan-c

    jan-c Guest

    Loe............I hope you did not think that I was saying you should have her put to sleep, far from it I think you have done a wonderfull job with her and top marks to you for giving her a chance. Deafness is a disability, yes but with correct training these dogs can lead a good life and I see no reason to have them pts. I am full of admiration for anyone who takes on such a dog and takes the trouble and time to train them. Well done!!
  16. Brainless

    Brainless Guest

    I have met and know several deaf dogs, those who went deaf in later life, and those where the deafness was not discovered until the owner realised there was something wrong. Sadly deafness is not easy to spot in young puppies and often the only clues are difficulties with training.

    This was the case with human children until routine hearing tests became the norm.

    My son failed the basic tests (inattentive little so and so) and had to go for BAER testing and thankfully was found to be fine.

    All power to the people who care for these dogs with special needs, but no breeder should sell a puppy that is deaf and if they are not going to keep it themselves then they should put it to sleep. there are enough healthy pups for anyone looking to own a puppy.

    I don't know how you came to own Ethel, and whether her condition was known before the age of homing. You got her so of course you love her, but you would have loved a hearing pup just as well, and life would have been easier for both of you. If she hadn't been available because she had been PTS by her breeder after hearing testing, then you would have had a hearing pup that you loved as much as her. If she was a rescue, again she woudln't have been there if teh breeder had been responsible.

    It is a breeders ethical duty to produce puppies as healthy as human knowledge will allow. In breeds where due to the physical characteristics bred for (white) deafness or any other congenital condition are probable, it is only right that these pups should not be reared and passed on two loving owners who could have a fully healthy pup instead.

    Nature being what it is any dog can later develop a problem and of course we will deal with it as appropriate and adjust our lifestyles to suit, but at the beginning both pups and owners are entitled to the best start and potential life possible.

    Thankfully you are a capable as well as loving owner and Ethel has a good life, but ti will enver be a fully normal life, which is what a breeder should aim for their pups to have.
  17. Eolabeo

    Eolabeo Guest

    Ty jan c
    I did'nt think you was saying deaf dogs should be put to sleep :) so no worrys there :)
    And ty for your kind messege, i wish alot more other people thought the same.
    They really do deserve a chance :).
  18. Eolabeo

    Eolabeo Guest

    i do understand what you are saying brainless but the point i want to put over is, There will always be people breeding these sort of dogs and not giving a poo as to where they end up, so it continues :(

    As quick as a responsible breeder puts to sleep a deaf puppy i can garantee a irrisponsible breeder is selling some Again, It continues.

    obviously they opened a santuary up for deaf dogs for a reason, to take in unwanted deaf dogs, or maybe they feel the same way i do and would take on and try help any deaf dog knowing it deserves a chance.

    Ethels life is a full normal life, she does everything a normal hearing dog does, except she cant hear, simple as that, obviously she cannot ever be let of a lead but she has got a nice long extending lead so she can still have a run around with other dogs and have big time fun.

    Again its always going to happen there is always going to be deafys about, and there are always going to be owners who buy one, don't want to part with it once they find out its deaf, and stupidly breed from it, sad but true.
    We will never wipe out deaf dogs, there is always going to be that sort of dog around somewhere, if i got my hands on one of these dogs ( if i did'nt have all my dogs ) then i'ld neuter it, love and care and put my heart and soul into giving it the best possible life ever, if all that failed then yes, it would be kinder to put it to sleep, but at least i know ive tryed.
  19. tilli121

    tilli121 PetForums Junior

    Jan 10, 2008
    Likes Received:
    why is it i can't see pictures of the pups
  20. carol

    carol PetForums VIP

    Nov 2, 2007
    Likes Received:
    hi tilli121
    this is old tread and i deleted some of my pic's off

    i will put some on a tread if you want.
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