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Colour predictions

Discussion in 'Dog Breeding' started by doogpoh, May 6, 2010.


  1. doogpoh

    doogpoh PetForums Senior

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    Hello some of you might remenber my post a while ago about my mums dog, well i seen her yesterday and i think unless it's a phantom then she is definately pregnant with about 3 weeks to go. My question is what colours do you think she will have? Mum is a black lab/golden retriever [dad was chocolate lab] and dad is a yellow lab. My mum thinks there all be chocolate because she thinks thats how you get chocolate, by mixing black and yellow :confused:. What do people think the pups will be? Thanks
     
  2. cutekiaro1

    cutekiaro1 PetForums VIP

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    at a wild guess and someone correct me if im wrong but chocolate is a more dominant colour than yellow? so there could be more chocolates, but there could also be some yellows in there too, maybe a purple :eek::D :D
     
    #2 cutekiaro1, May 6, 2010
    Last edited: May 6, 2010
    alaun likes this.
  3. Sleeping_Lion

    Sleeping_Lion Banned

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    I think the yellow dog would have to carry chocolate for any of the pups to *possibly* be choc with this crossbreed, personally, I'd assume they were all going to be black, even if the yellow Lab does carry chocolate, I think with the GR in there you will not get any chocolate coming through, although I could be wrong. Colours do not work like that at all with Labradors, they are carried genetically by dominant/recessive genes, it is not at all a case of a *mixing pallette*.

    Colour Coat Inheritance in Labradors

    Personally, I'd recommend to your mum that your bitch gets the mismate injection, I know you didn't ask, but unless you have homes lined up, and it sounds like this litter wasn't particularly planned (apologies if I'm jumping to any conclusions as I haven't read your other thread) if you aren't sure what you're going to get, then there's a lot of things that can go wrong, both with a pregnant bitch, and also with potential puppy owners. I'm not being critical, but you may save yourselves a lot of heart ache, unfortunately, things can and do go very wrong with breeding :(
     
  4. Sleeping_Lion

    Sleeping_Lion Banned

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    Black is dominant in Labradors.
     
  5. cutekiaro1

    cutekiaro1 PetForums VIP

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    oh sorry I didnt even read the bit where it said she was black I assumed she was chocolate :eek: Im having a really bad day lol :eek6:
     
  6. Shamen

    Shamen Guest

    im no breeder but even i know you dont stick a black dog to a yellow dog and expect to get chocolate pups!:confused: i think black is the dominant colour not chocolate, but it all depends what genes the parents are carrying for colour and one of them is a crossbreed, but anyway they will either carry 2 dominant genes,2 recessive genes or one of each so without even knowing the background history of the sire and dam you cant be sure exactly what they'll produce.
     
  7. Sleeping_Lion

    Sleeping_Lion Banned

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    Lol, we all have 'em! Unfortunately, a lot of people assume this (yellow x black = chocolate), and a lot of people breed chocolate because they sell, although I'm not saying that's the case here, just unfortunately too common.
     
  8. doogpoh

    doogpoh PetForums Senior

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    Thanks for your post, I understand what your saying and i agree that it was a stupid thing for her to do, but when you have 2 bitches and an unaltered dog in the same house i would say it was planned to a degree. There is no way she will get her the mismate and i have tried my best to get her to do it with no luck, so i just need to help for the puppies sake and for the bitch now. She doesn't have any homes lined up at the moment and tbh probably won't care where they end up. I don't live at home any more so it's not really my place to tell her she can't do something, i just wish my dad would get a back bone and do something, she's supposed to be his dog [not that he does any thing with her]. sorry for the rant, just a p**sed of tbh, it's just a big joke to her and doesn't seem to understand the risks, ecpecially when the bitch is still a pup her self and this was her first season :mad:
     
  9. cutekiaro1

    cutekiaro1 PetForums VIP

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    Dont beat yourself up about it, its not your fault. As you say all you can do is be there for her to lend a hand and pick up the pieces.
     
    #9 cutekiaro1, May 6, 2010
    Last edited: May 7, 2010
  10. comfortcreature

    comfortcreature PetForums VIP

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    Well, no, that is not how it works. It is actually quite a bit more complicated.

    I can tell you, with this pairing, that is is likely 1/2 the pups will be golden/yellow though. A breeder can't know about whether or not chocolate will be produced (from that Yellow Lab sire) unless you know if he carries chocolate or not. IF he does, then there is a one in four chance for pups to have chocolate leathers (but they could be on a golden pup, not a black one). Chocolate alleles dilute black fur to brown. They do not tend to dilute golden/yellow fur, but do dilute the leathers.

    If the sire does not carry chocolate, (and even though we know the dam does), the pups will be black or gold. Some might carry chocolate if the Mum gifts them that allele (it would be recessive and unseen in them though).

    The E locus punnet square for this pairing is easy to work out, and looks like the one just below. The alleles of the parent dogs are put across the top and down the left side and paired up as they would match, showing the four pups. 'e/e' is the recessive combination that produces the type of yellow/gold that retrievers and labs have. Black/chocolate will always be 'E/E' or 'E/e' and yellow will be 'e/e'. The Mum dog of this litter is 'E/e' (known through parentage) and the sire 'e/e'.

    [​IMG]

    As the square suggests, 2 of each 4 pups should be 'e/e' - golden, and two should be 'E/e' - which allows the colors of black, chocolate, brindle, and all the agouti 'sable' types including black/tan. With retrievers and labs usually only black and it's dilute form which is chocolate are the options.

    -----------------------------------------------------

    The way that you get chocolate in dogs is:

    1. To breed two chocolate dogs together. This is easiest as the allele that causes black pigment to dilute to chocolate is recessive. IF a dog has chocolate nose leather (and lip rims etc) then it is b/b on the locus that controls this coloring (as opposed to B/B or B/b - which give you black leathers).

    Each pup takes just a single allele off each locus from their parent.

    From a b/b mom - all they can take is one b
    From a b/b dad - all they can take is one b

    The pair those together on their own "B" locus and end up with b/b themselves (all with brown leathers - often called chocolate).

    2. Breed a chocolate dog to one that is carrying chocolate. By odds, half the pups, then, would have chocolate leathers, and half would have black.

    The parents are B/b & b/b. The Punnet Square below shows how the the alleles would pair up in four pups.

    [​IMG]

    (by odds two will have black leathers 'B/b' and two will have chocolate 'b/b')

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]


    3. Breed a dog carrying chocolate to another carrying chocolate (and yes this could be a golden colored dog, as they can carry chocolate). Each parent is B/b on the locus that affects this coloring. Another punnet square that works for this. With this combo, only one in four pups appears chocolate.

    [​IMG]

    ------------------------------
    Now, with your mom's pairing there is also the complication of the Golden colors in there. The locus that controls this type of golden colors is on a whole 'nuther locus, the "E" or extension locus, so things get more complicated - including the Punnet squares which have to take into account this extra locus.

    You KNOW that one dog, the Mum, is B/b on her "Brown" locus - her sire was chocolate and she HAS to carry a recessive 'b' allele from him.

    The Mum dog is therefore B/b, E/e on the two loci that we're looking at.

    The sire is a Golden Lab. He is e/e on the extension locus. We can't know what he is on the B locus unless you know his ancestry. He could be B/B, in which case every pup will get a dominant B, and none will show chocolate. IF he is B/b and carries chocolate, then some pups might take a recessive chocolate allele from each parent and be chocolate on their leathers.

    This is the punnet square which shows how complicated the odds get when you begin working with two alleles.

    [​IMG]

    This is a wonderful site to send your mom to for information on labrador retriever color inheritance. It has the wonderful images (demonstrated above) which really help to figure this stuff out. - Dog Coat Colour Genetics



    And another one:

    The Genetics of Color in Labradors

    I love genetics, so I'm just addressing that part of the post. Others have covered the rest.

    CC
     
    #10 comfortcreature, May 6, 2010
    Last edited: May 6, 2010
  11. Sleeping_Lion

    Sleeping_Lion Banned

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    What a horrible, horrible situation for you to be in :( I don't feel I need to say any more about how horribly irresponsible it is, because it's your mum, not you, and the guilt should be squarely on her shoulders. If I thought it would make any difference, I'd suggest you drag your mother down death row at the local rescue, and then ask her to say whether the litter is a good idea, but unfortunately I don't think it would make a jot of difference from the sounds of it.
     
  12. babycham2002

    babycham2002 PetForums VIP

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    comfortcreature i will come back to your post when I am not so tired cos it looks amazingly informative

    This post makes me think of my friends sister (and my friend) who think that her unborn baby is going to be ginger cos she is pale and he is dark!
     
  13. swarthy

    swarthy PetForums VIP

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    I'm a bit confused - what colour is mum? is she black? from a chocolate lab crossed with a Goldie?

    As others have said, if dad carries chocolate, and has black pigmentation, you could actually end up with all three colours, as mum wiill undoubtedly carry chocolate and yellow (Golden for retriever) - I am assuming the crossover gene colours between Goldies and Labs are compatible?

    If dad has liver pigment (i.e. no black pigment), you could, I am guessing risk getting Dudleys with no pigment at all :( and still end up with a rainbow litter.

    If dad is yellow with black pigment and doesn't carry chocolate, then the pups should be yellow and black.

    TBH you don't really want dad to carry chocolate, because it increases the risk of Dudleys.
     
  14. sandysmummy

    sandysmummy PetForums Junior

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    We had puppies almost 10 weeks ago (the house is soo quiet now they are all gone!!) Dad was a golden lab (his dad was a golden and his mum a black) Mum was a geramn shepherd cross (she is msotly brown with some black markings) and ALL our puppies were blac!! Although a few had small white markings!!!
     
  15. comfortcreature

    comfortcreature PetForums VIP

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    This actually makes perfect sense as Chocolate is a dilute form of black, and both black and chocolate are dominant to golden. If the Goldie did not carry the dilute chocolate gene (and it shouldn't), then the pups would be black and not chocolate (to dilute the black, the chocolate HAS to come in from both parents). With a chocolate parent, though, all pups would carry chocolate.

    SOB

    edit: as this post confused, I've come back to explain it better. I hadn't thought about the fact that Labrador people don't need to consider the K locus. Somethin' to learn everyday.:)

    When I say that black and chocolate are dominant to Golden (or Yellow), I'm not talking about at the "b" locus which alters the coloring of a solid black dog to brown. I am referring to the dominant allele of the 'K' locus that black and chocolate labradors share and that create solid coloring on a dog. I am also referring to the E allele which they both share, that is dominant to the 'e' allele of the Golden/Yellow dogs.

    The b/b alleles that help to create chocolate coloring are still very much recessive (when considered singularly).
     
    #15 comfortcreature, May 6, 2010
    Last edited: May 7, 2010
  16. comfortcreature

    comfortcreature PetForums VIP

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    Again, this is predictable. Even though the golden color of labs and retrievers is recessive, it is that Golden dad that provided the pups the black "solid self" coloring - because it was aided by the dominant E allele given by the german shepherd mix dam.

    On the extension locus, when a dog is recessively set at e/e, then that recessive pair works like a switch off to the other alleles that would usually be dominant. You cannot see that the Golden Retriever holds K alleles (dominant blacK) on the K locus, but he does, and as soon as a dominant E allele is introduced and given to the pups, breaking up the recessive e/e pairing (as was done through the Shepherd mix mom) then that E allele the pups have inherited from Mom allows that blacK 'K' allele (from the Golden Retriever dad) to dominate.

    When working with this combination in parents you are starting to work with many, many loci. Black is a dominant color, but is affected by the K, E and A and B loci (and more). With mixing breeds (and with breeds like Cockers where all are at play) you really have to start knowing the loci you are working with to be able to even halfway predict outcomes. Sable mixed with Golden very often produces black puppies and surprises breeders who don't understand the alleles.

    The small white marking are often just from lack of development of pigment cells - a dam having a cold at a certain time in her pregnancy can cause this. Also some modifiers can be selected for that enhance or inhibit the full development of pigment cells.

    SOB
     
    #16 comfortcreature, May 6, 2010
    Last edited: May 7, 2010
  17. rocco33

    rocco33 PetForums VIP

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    . :rolleyes:

    I think the likelihood are that they will be black.

    If this was her first season then how old was she? :mad:

    I'm sorry I'm not getting at you, you are not responsible for what your mum does, but this really is despicable. :mad: She shouldn't own dogs.
     
  18. swarthy

    swarthy PetForums VIP

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    The black, chocolate and yellow genes are completely independent of each other - you don't get a dilution from mixing say yellow with chocolate. Black is the dominant gene and can be produced if carried only by one parent, both chocolate and yellow genes are recessive, and therefore to produce them in a litter, both parents need to either be, or carry the colours.

    Mating Chocolate carrying yellow to yellow carrying chocolate can be a recipe for disaster - but providing only one of the parents carries the other colour (i.e. Chocolate carrying yellow to yellow or yellow carrying chocolate to chocolate - you should be OK)

    What you can get from two parents carrying yellow and chocolate is dogs with no Black pigment (Liver yellows) or Dudleys, (i.e. no pigment).

    The dilution gene is something completely separate and not widely recognised or tested for.

    A Black labrador carrying the dilution gene (Dd Locus) is what causes the Blue undercoat - and with Chocolates, is quite likely responsible for the so called special 'silver' labrador which doesn't actually exist.

    People seem to think that mating chocolate and yellow will cause all sorts of pigmentation issues, when in truth, it is the extended genes they carry which cause the problems, not the simple chocolate / yellow pairings.

    If the grandsire of this litter is chocolate, even if the sire doesn't carry it, statistically, 50% of the litter will.

    Edited to add - this doesn't mean I agree in any way with the original topic of this thread (which from what I can gather, the poster doesn't themselves).

    I also didn't realise it was the bitch's first season, if it is, is she under 12 months? this signficantly increases the risk of mother and babies dying.
     
    #18 swarthy, May 6, 2010
    Last edited: May 6, 2010
  19. foxy81

    foxy81 PetForums Member

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    our yellow lab was mated with a black lab and had 6 black and 1 yellow, years ago my mums black lab was mated to a yellow/golden lab and had 4 yellow,4 black and 2 chocolate
     
  20. swarthy

    swarthy PetForums VIP

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    What people don't seem to realise is that any pairing of labradors can produce any mix of colours, dependent on the genes the parents carry.

    Your yellow was mated to a black who carried the recessive yellow gene (he may also have carried the chocolate gene but because mum didn't - it wasn't produced)

    The black lab mated to a yellow (there is no such thing as a golden lab) produced a rainbow litter because the black clearly carried chocolate and yellow while the yellow carried at least chocolate - without seeing it (or DNA Testing), it is impossible to say whether it had black pigment - but as above, only one parent needs to be black to produce black pups.

    4 yellow, 4 black and 2 chocolate is a lovely mix :D

    In all this - you have to remember that we are talking statistics - which base a litter expectation across every 100 dogs.

    I have been talking regularly to the owner of a CH dog who I suspected MIGHT carry the chocolate gene because of his breeding - he has recently produced his first chocolate puppies at the ripe old age of NINE :D


    ===================

    Edited to add - Yellow to Yellow will ALWAYS produce Yellow - and chocolate to chocolate can NEVER produce black
     
    #20 swarthy, May 6, 2010
    Last edited: May 6, 2010
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