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Breeding my shih tzu

Discussion in 'Dog Breeding' started by jwiedner, Oct 26, 2012.


  1. jwiedner

    jwiedner PetForums Newbie

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    Im thinking about breeding my purebred shih tzu with the neighbors shih tzu. I have at least 4 people that want puppys and i want to keep one myself. The only thing im worried about is the neighbors male is a little bit bigger than mine would this be a problem considering they are both pure bred shih tzus?
     
  2. Sleeping_Lion

    Sleeping_Lion Banned

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    Hi and welcome to the forum, to be very honest unless you've had the help and opinion of someone who knows pedigree shih tzus, I wouldn't breed from your girl. Is she AKC registered or simply bred to type? If she is AKC registered she may well be endorsed, which will mean none of the resultant progeny could be registered and you would have no control over whether they are then bred on from and yet more unregistered pups are produced.

    Waiting lists can disappear unfortunately, and people who say they'd love a puppy suddenly are too busy, or life style circumstances change and they can't have one. But to be very honest, after having one litter from my girl with the intention of keeping back a bitch pup to train up and hopefully show/compete with, I would say based on my experience don't do it. I ended up spending £1,500 on an emergency c-section and about £500 treating two pups which didn't make it. It was physically, emotionally and financially draining, I have the bitch pup I wanted to keep back, and she is just what I wanted. But for the vast majority of people it would be easier (and cheaper) to simply buy in a pup. In total I am close to £3k down from that one litter, but then there are a few health health tests available for Labradors and I don't think there will be nearly as many recommended for shih tzus. But there are a lot of costs associated with breeding that people don't take into account, my electricity bill must have trebled with all the washing I did of bedding and towels for example.

    It might seem a nice idea, but in all honesty, unless you are experienced and have good reason to breed from your girl I just wouldn't risk her health and well being, or your pocket. :eek:
     
  3. dexter

    dexter PetForums VIP

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    males are always slightly bigger than bitches according to breed standards ;) tbo if you are thinking of mating her to next doors dog , same breed, don't bother . get her spayed . yoiu obviously have not done any research on lines, health tets or breeding of your dog so my advice would be get her spayed and keep her as a loved pet..
     
  4. newfiesmum

    newfiesmum Banned

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    You need to know exactly what health tests are needed for the breed, and you need to know the health history of your neighbour's dog. That could cause problems to start with, don't you think? Most people know little about breeding and health testing and your neighbour could take offence at being asked, imagining you are insulting his/her dog, which will cause future bad feeling between you.

    On the other hand, if you choose another stud with the right health tests, again you will upset your neighbour who will demand to know why their dog was not good enough.

    Do you see where I am going with this?

    From my point of view I would never risk my girl. With all due respect to all good breeders, I could not bear to put my wonderful lady through the pains of childbirth, it would break my heart.

    Personally, I think you should try to see if Shih tzu Rescue have a young dog for you.
     
  5. Sleeping_Lion

    Sleeping_Lion Banned

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    I can't tell you how much you beat yourself up, sat in a vet waiting room in floods of tears with snot streaming out of your nose you've cried so much, and, after 36 hours of very little sleep, having to make that awful decision to risk your bitch and pups putting her through a c-section, not knowing if you'll see her again.

    Even now, with Tau pretty much back to normal, and a very robust puppy who has just spilt tea everywhere by running into the kitchen table full pelt, I can vivdly remember being sat in that waiting room, having spoken to the OH, and speaking to Di Stevens, a friend who has years of experience in breeding, I felt like sh@t making that decision. I am forever grateful to my vet who did a bl**dy good job, and the staff that helped bring those pups into the world.

    I don't know how people do it on a regular basis!
     
  6. newfiesmum

    newfiesmum Banned

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    I'm in floods of tears if I accidentally tread on one of them, so I know how I would feel.
     
  7. kodakkuki

    kodakkuki PetForums VIP

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    hi, and weelcome!
    i dont really have anything else to add really, appart from you need to listen to SL, and even look up her breeding thread to see what all she went through.
    as for you next door neighbours dog as stud, even without seeing either dog im fairly confident in saying he won't be the best match for your girl.
    im planning on a litter from one of my girls, and am probably going top need to take her on the ferry to mainland uk just to find a good enough stud to compliment her- because i want to breed to type as well as have a good, strong bloodline and that all important health...

    but stick around and read and chat... and show us piccies of your doggy please!!!
     
  8. jwiedner

    jwiedner PetForums Newbie

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    This comment is so rude. First of all we have been plaining this since we got both of them. They are both akc registered and birthdays are only two weeks apart. You have the nerve to tell me i havent done enough research, what do you think i am doing? I am not planning on breeding her until next year. I joined this forum to learn more about it before i do it. And we are both waiting to get each of them fixed until im ready to breed her...like i said i am not doing it until next year so i am researching now. Btw we are plannimg on takimg themvet both to the vet and get all the heath tests done. I do have help from an experienced breeder/vet i just wanted to know the facts.
     
  9. jwiedner

    jwiedner PetForums Newbie

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    Here she is.....
     

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    #9 jwiedner, Oct 27, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2012
  10. househens

    househens Guest

    Are you willing to risk big vet bills, her possible death, to have puppies? Is she insured? 2 weeks difference in age is irrelevant. You can buy a registered dog, brother or sister of a show champion, and your dog could have so many faults... A top show bred litter will usually have a pick dog and bitch, POSSIBLY, a 2nd pick dog or bitch with some chance of a mediocre show career, and after that, most pups have no chance of winning anything but waggiest tail, and can be completely unsound. If you bought from the others, they can be faulty to completely unsound, even if the brother won Crufts. Litters are not all the same. They aren't like clones, more like if a supermodel had a Downs syndrome sibling. They are from the same genes, but the appearances and potential as a supermodel, are 100% different.

    What are your 2 dogs bloodlines? Do they come from lines that both carry recessive genes for the same truly distressing abnormalties? Sad truth is, if you really HAD researched before buying, you would have been able to list all the strengths and genetic problems of your line and your neighbours line, IF they aren't closely related! You would know the crosses of dogs that are less likely to have problems occurring AND the bloodline crosses that often do throw horror pups.

    Can you look at your dog and list her best points and worst? Similarly, the male. Are any of the faults repeated in both? To breed, then, will strengthen the chances of pups with those problems. If you don't even know how to tell, purebred breeding should be done only by the experts. If your breeder sold you a non show WINNING pup, (NB not just ABLE to be shown, but LIKELY to win the GROUP, not just the basic breed and age class), then they aren't really knowledgeable enough to guide you. To breed top quality show takes a HUGE amount of knowledge, years of obsessing about dogs, and what genetic faults and strengths they are responsible for, for GENERATIONS. YEARS of being the most BORING obsessive to EVERYONE. Otherwise, you are basically going to breed purebred mediocre dogs, possibly with bad faults. You become a byb.

    Your dogs may be lovely, but will be one, two, four, 8 dogs more in the huge flood of puppies, all competing for a small no of homes. It is VERY likely at least one of your dogs will end up in rescue, perhaps even death row. Multi thousands of dogs a year are PTS. After 5 years, it is very likely one of yours will, no matter how careful you are. If you breed 5 pups, If you get homes for your dogs, 5 dogs will die, somewhere locally, because your pups took the homes they would have got. There are thousands of people who are devoted to dogs on this forum. So much so, their family and friends think them mad. Yet they would be HORRIFIED and ASHAMED to bring a litter into existance, because they would cause the death of the same number of dogs.

    You aren't the only person who thinks, just one litter. You see it as hardly making a difference, but you are one of multi thousands, on top of serious showers replacing show stock, which usually means 4 plus pet puppies they have to sell, then the evil puppy farmers, the accidents... The worst part is, we tell you what you are doing, and you don't care. Whatever it costs the dogs in some other litter, IF you are the lucky ones, you don't care enough, for the others. IF you can't find top homes, (you'll have to check their homes, ask all the right questions, and you can NEVER be 100 % sure, even with decades of experience), are you prepared to keep the pups, for life, or give up and put them into the rescue system?

    You come fresh, had a great idea, have no idea of the cumulative effect, and the HUNDREDS of same questions we've been asked, this year, the desperate shriek for help, for orphaned pups, or a 4000 pound energency vet bill,after all the warnings...

    For us, it's misery. Same assurance of wanting advice, same determination to indulge themselves, even if 2, 4, 8 dogs die because you want that litter. You want happy encouragement, we are depressed and sad, at what is to come, whatever we write.
     
    #10 househens, Oct 27, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 27, 2012
  11. jwiedner

    jwiedner PetForums Newbie

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    Ok thsnks...this is why i joined this forum just wanting to learn more i understand that most of you are against it because the number of unwanted dogs but there is no need for the hostility.
     
  12. jwiedner

    jwiedner PetForums Newbie

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    Ohh and 4 of the homes for the puppies are 100% guarenteed...the three wanting puppies are family members and keep asking me about it.
     
  13. househens

    househens Guest

    When people really love dogs, sacrifice so much, to save dogs and 5, 10, 12, people a week come on, asking for our advice and then totally ignore all the hard won knowledge, all the thousands of tears it has cost, fighting a losing battle, with people, (and I'm not being rude, here, but from what you have already written, you haven't a clue, you don't even have a clue WHAT information is even relevant, to give), like you, it's the luck of the draw, whether you make me feel savage or suicidal.

    This is genuine advice, not insult. Try to read it so.

    You are SO ignorant of your subject, you have come on here, saying you won't be breeding for a year, and want to learn, to be an expert... If you studied your breed for 5 days a week, 5 years, full time, you might scrape through, travelling to shows on weekends, interviewing the most experienced AND SUCCESSFUL dog exhibitors, you might be able to hold your own, as an outsider, with experts. AFTER 5 YEARS. You really need 10/20 years part time. THAT is when you buy your bitch, to breed. IF you are seriously breeding to win big OR call yourself an expert. In the meantime, you suck up to experts, and beg to watch their dogs deliver pups, you never stop asking.

    You genuinely know nothing. You know SO little, you THINK you know a lot. You bought a registered bitch how long ago? The breeder you bought the dog from... Have they been a Best In Show breeder? Do they regularly win Best In/Runner Up In Group? A real expert would be winning classes at Crufts, or in the top places in MAJOR Breed/Group Shows. The Breeder may be a National level Judge, at least in Group. May be an International Judge.

    If they faff about with breed/age class wins as their peak, that's really amateur, unless a major show. If they have bred show dogs for 20 years and have 1 group win in that time, you need advice from elsewhere, about what makes a top show dog. Did you buy PICK BITCH/DOG? If you bought from a really successful breeder/exhibitor, there would have been several years long waiting list, for both, minimum. If you just rang up, and got a puppy from the next litter, you've got a 2nd rate show dog, at best.

    Top breeders would NEVER sell pick dog/bitch to a pet home. They would insist it be shown, and not by someone who doesn't know the tricks of competitive showing. Again, the top breeders would never allow you to breed from a pet quality dog. Her/His bloodlines are precious. If they let you breed, IF you got a top bitch, you would never get to choose the dog. He/She would tell you who your bitch was mating with, AND THAT WOULD BE IN YOUR CONTRACT. You see this is nothing. I could write a book of info you should know, and I would call myself an absolute amateur, not even interested in breeding purebreds. I do know experts, tho. REAL EXPERTS. Double the ignorance, with your friends purchase. To buy a purebred, without a clue, and then say you're going to be an expert, by the time you breed, in a year, that you will use the next door neighbours dog, despite not having a clue how many potential genetic problems may occur, with that pairing... THis is like being an 8 yo, dressing up as a Doctor, going to the local hosptal, and actually treating cancer.

    What makes me savage, is despite all the patience, all the explaining, the hours of my life invested in explaining all the hard facts, I'm willing to bet you will totally ignore everything I say, All the warnings, all the info about the suffering you'll cause. You are determined to indulge your fantasy, whatever it costs other animals, possibly costing your little dog her life.

    Then you'll be back here wanting comfort.
     
    #13 househens, Oct 27, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 27, 2012
  14. rona

    rona Still missing my boys

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    I have to disagree strongly with this post :(

    Showing dogs does NOT suddenly make you a a good breeder, look at the harm a lot of "show" people have done to breeds :(
    I know of several SHOW breeders who cover up issues just to win

    I know an excellent breeder of Labradors who has never shown or worked her dogs.
    She knows all the pedigrees of her chosen dogs and goes into such detail that she actually neutered a dog rather than breed because of epilepsy 4 generations back. The dog she chose to breed was scrutinized to the same standard, as are stud dogs.
    She has now breed 3 generations of very healthy, perfectly sound and reasonably good looking Labs.
     
  15. dexter

    dexter PetForums VIP

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    hey rude i ain't , honest yes. love dogs yes. Some people don't like the advice they are given i for one do not tippy toe round people and give them the answers they want! Intrigued to know why you joined a UK forum to ask the questions? Your first question being ....................................
    The only thing im worried about is the neighbors male is a little bit bigger than mine would this be a problem considering they are both pure bred shih tzus???????????????????
     
  16. newfiesmum

    newfiesmum Banned

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    And there is something grossly inferior about a Downs Syndrome sibling, how? I would be glad if you could think before you post, as I have already had to remove one post this morning.
     
  17. househens

    househens Guest

    I've just lost my completed reply.

    But will address the new remark that is a raw wound. I am not saying there is anything inferior about a Down's syndrome child. In fact, apart from me wanting to chaperone, tho the world of high fashion SO boring, a Downs syndrome Super Model would be a near ideal child, far more pleasant to live with, than the average late teen girl, from those I've met. They always seem so cheery and good natured and affectionate, unlike any supermodel type late teen, I've ever seen. And they SHOULDN'T ever need to borrow money. I'm saying they can be from the same parents that produced a 6' stick thin supermodel. I was saying that litters were no more a cloned production than a family with the super tall, stick thin daughter and the equally loved Downs syndrome daughter. Forgive my ignorance, but I've never seen a 6' tall down's syndrome daughter. I thought they were shorter, and stockier, like me, before I changed from stocky to just fat. It's a phenotype range. I didn't mention or think in terms of inferiority. it was simply the wide range in physical type. Quite frankly. I think Naomi Campbell is a waste of oxygen, along with those ghastly Kardashions, which I've had to add now, in case I'm now accused of colour bias.

    To those not educated in the show world, the puppies we see as near identical, are that different in type. Take a Gordon Setter. All the same colour, tiny variation in size, that we pick up. The obsessives will have picked the 2 best of each sex, or say, no 2nd pick bitch. They will have already assigned most as pets only. It might be a faulty colouring I can pick up, or they may witter about the head of a puppy, that looks close enough, to me. I don't know what they are seeing. I like knowledge, I like to get a subject under my belt, but it's SO boring. I can't rate puppies as 1st/2nd class. Who has the magic personality? Wonky leg? That's the one I gravitate to and want. In a field full of very similar sheep, who got my attention? The little ewe with the half blind white eye. Ironically, it saved her life. Has given her a fantasy retirement. I cannot think that clinical way about dogs. However, I also dont have an interest in breeding and producing in my mnd's eye, the perfect show specimen.
     
    #17 househens, Oct 27, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 27, 2012
  18. househens

    househens Guest

    Getting back to the post lost, Rona the OP is starting from nothing. She has no idea of breed standards, practically applied. She has no knowledge to critically assess info given. You can't say to her find a shih tzu breeder who breeds to an extraordinary standard but refuses to show. How is SHE to assess such a person? If they fill in the paperwork, how is she going to know the difference between such a rare shih tzu breeder and a puppy farmer with pretensions?

    This is someone who thinks KC rego immediately means a high class dog. We both know that is rubbish, and incredibly naive. This is someone who feels it is important to know that the dogs are the same age, as they are going to mate. At this point, if she is going to breed a litter of pups, after already buying the bitch, at a point where she admits she knows nothing NOW, even if she pulled off expert status in 12 months, she's already bought the bitch, the most important decision to be made AND the dog was bought by someone equally naive. If she was buying a top quality pick bitch, from someone who excelled in the show ring, the waiting list would have been years long. The only time I ever heard of a complete beginner getting pick dog/bitch, was when the newie was under the patronage of the breeder, and would be coached and told who to mate her with AND IT WAS UNDER CONTRACT.

    If the OP rang and just got a bitch from the next litter, then it would have been from the 2nd rate bitches. If the breeder was producing extreme quality, shown by her or not, there would be a queue to buy them, as long as reg'd. 2nd rate can have bad colouring, bad eye/nose/shoulders/tail set/temperament/too tall/short, too heavy/slight etc right through to seriously unsound. The OP is not going to know what faults she is correcting, nor if the bought mate repeats the same faults/weaknesses.

    Again, if the bitch was from top lines, no proud, serious exhibitor would hand over a 2nd rate bitch to breed from, to any dog. Their bloodlines are so important to them. Their glory is their success. Too jealously guarded to allow a pet quality bitch mate with any local purebred, the results possibly an horrendous embarrassment.

    The only way the OP is going to know they are with someone who really knows standards and can point out faults, is to approach the most successful showing in their breed. If they do volunteer info about hiding faults, never despise that knowledge, even if you never plan to use it, as you then recognise when it is being used.

    I can't stand the show world and it would cost a lot to pay me to stay through one. Very cliquey, gossipy, I can very much understand a person feeling that showing was not for them. I made that decision a long time ago, having seen great success close up, through observing someone. I disliked the effect, the attitude, even as I knew the psychology behind it.

    However, there was no denying the HUGE knowledge base, the YEARS of obsessing about pedigrees, taking overseas trips and coming back with 60 hours of filmed dog shows, and the 2000 hours of intense discusson. The intense scrutiny of every mating of the breed, of phone calls to hear if any major problems occurred never to be acknowledged publically, often not to the breeder, but their gossippy best friend. It's not a world I like but to breed without a clue, registered or not, is byb, with papers. It's more mediocre/poor quality dogs born to shuffle around the deck of the Titanic, with few chances of life, let alone quality of life. Every creature saved, another dead, and always, always everyone insisting they have the right to breed one litter... or maybe 2... But THEIR litter doesn't count.

    The maths of guilt don't apply to me. Only you. The sad facts of every every 2nd dog, every 4th dog breeding, doublng the dogs homeless and suffering or PTS and always something that applies to others, from the dogs that were not good enough to be accepted as good examples of the breed, to show, even at puppy level, but good enough to breed from.

    It's heading for midnight. I've wasted hours of what is left of my life, putting forward a case for not breeding puppies, to save the same number dying. An argument that would shut down any dream of me breeding dogs, as a genuine dog lover and I know it will make no difference at all.
     
  19. rona

    rona Still missing my boys

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    Who's to say that that obsessive person has the right eye for faults.
    Obsessive people did this to a breed :mad:
    Neapolitan Mastiff AKC Champion Wild Child Verona Mastino.us - YouTube

    and this :mad:
    Multi champion bulldog anglais Ukeesson - YouTube

    and this :mad:
    Westminster Kennel Club 2012 Best In Show: Malachy the Pekingese - YouTube

    or this :mad:
    Basset Hound-FCI Int'l dog show in Okayama Ch. Afan 18 mos oct 18, 09 - YouTube

    The drive to Win isn't always conducive to the betterment of a breed :(
     
  20. rona

    rona Still missing my boys

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    While I agree with you totally about the OP your assumption on what the show world is all about just stuns me.
    How can you hold a whole group of people up like that as being good?
    Whole breed clubs have been taken over by people who just want to win, no matter at what cost to the dogs, that's dogs as in whole breed suffering, not just the odd dog here an there within that breed
     
    #20 rona, Oct 27, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2012
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