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Breeder rights

Discussion in 'Dog Breeding' started by alrhios, May 20, 2010.


  1. alrhios

    alrhios PetForums Junior

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    A breeder has asked me to add this on her behalf. She said that she will lift the endorsements for someone who wants a puppy for 1 litter if the bitch is suitable. I understand that once they are listed they cannot be added again once she is registered to the new owner.
    I just wondered where she would stand? I think she will write it into a contract that only 1 litter can be bred, but if the new owner went on and had another litter what would happen? Could she take it further?
     
  2. Merlin Birmingham

    Merlin Birmingham PetForums Senior

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    Why would she only want the bitch or dog to only have one litter?
     
  3. Blitz

    Blitz PetForums VIP

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    I don't know the ins and outs of it but I assume she would have no rights once she has lifted the endorsement. Considering the number of unregistered litters and the number of breeders who prefer to register with one of the other societies I do wonder if it is even worth endorsing the registration in the first place.
     
  4. hawksport

    hawksport Banned

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    Once an endorsement is lifted thats it
     
  5. swarthy

    swarthy PetForums VIP

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    I would query why the breeder is adamant that the bitch only has one litter - that almost smacks of old wive's tales.:confused:

    I do ask my bitch owners within the contract (as well as meeting all the required health tests / results) that they work with me to identify a suitable stud dog for their first litter - but once that first litter is done and dusted I am conscious that there is nothing further I can do other than hope they come back to me for advice if they breed again.
     
  6. hawksport

    hawksport Banned

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    If my bitch comes up to expectations I may have a litter from her but I wouldn't even think of doing anything without her breeders guidance and advice
     
  7. rocco33

    rocco33 PetForums VIP

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    Not strictly true, but does sound like this would be the case in this instance.

    ANY owner who is in possession of the dog can put endorsements on - it doesn't just apply to the breeder, however, in this case in order to put them back on, they would have to have the bitch registered in their name and in possession of them. So, provided the pup is not sold and kept in the breeders name and sent back to the breeder for the litter (all a bit complicated and unlikely but it could happen), then once lifted the breeder would be unable to put them back.
     
  8. rocco33

    rocco33 PetForums VIP

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    ...................
     
  9. alrhios

    alrhios PetForums Junior

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    I dont know whay she has said only one litter. Think she could be worried that they overbreed her.

    Im actually curious too as to the whole 'puppy contract' thing.
    I know breeders get people to complete them, but if you break the contract, where would the breeder stand?? Would they really try and go through the courts?! Or would they make sure everyone with that breed knew what you had done? A solicitor once told me that puppy contracts are a waste of time and would not stand up in the eyes of the law. What are your opinions on this?
     
  10. swarthy

    swarthy PetForums VIP

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    But even if they managed to agree this with the KC, it doesn't stop any bitch having unregistered litters. The KC has a limit on how many litters can be registered from any bitch, and now for Accredited Breeders, many breed clubs are bringing in their own limits on the maximum number of litters that should be registered from any one bitch.

    It depends what areas you are talking about covered by a contract - my puppy buyers sign to say they will come back to me to rehome, but if they don't stay in contact and don't tell me - unless some sharp eyed person picks up on it (as happened with a litter mate to a bitch I bought in) and we were able to guide the lady through the best way to rehome and (gently) tell the breeder as she was afraid to :(

    With regards to endorsements - providing the requirements for lifting those endorsements are crystal clear, there should be no issue on a legal front with this, and the KC won't get involved - HOWEVER, endorsements don't of course actually stop people from breeding, they simply stop them from registering the litter.

    I give my puppy owners guidelines on things like insurance, exercise regime, diet etc - but again, you cannot force their hand.

    And - for the record, anyone endorsing a pup that goes to live overseas, with or without an export pedigree, all endorsements are null and void unless you have watertight contract.

    The dog (in France at least) can be registered with the French KC - however, they have a two tier registration system, and if the dog passes it's conformation tests at 18 months or above, then the UK Export pedigree would be needed.

    ===================

    It's a bit of a catch 22 situation - puppies sold through the course of a business are covered by the Sale of Goods Act - puppies sold by hobby breeders are not deemed to be sold as part of a business, and therefore, the same rules don't apply for consumers

    :confused:
     
    #10 swarthy, May 21, 2010
    Last edited: May 21, 2010
  11. alrhios

    alrhios PetForums Junior

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    I think her main concern is that this potential owner has openly said she would like to breed. The breeder wanted pet homes really, but she does seem a nice lady. She has agreed to lift the endorsements to let her have 1 litter provided she is suitable. If the new owner decided to disregard this and have another KC reg litter anyway, is there anything the breeder could do? Or once the paperwork is signed she's the new owners dog, so her choice? She is an accredited breeder.
     
  12. GoldenShadow

    GoldenShadow PetForums VIP

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    For me it wouldn't matter if the person was nice or not, if I wanted pet homes they would only go to pet homes. If the breeder is concerned the new owner would overbreed I personally wouldn't even sell them a puppy because why would they even care about endorsements if they don't seem aware of what's good for the dog or you don't trust them?

    IMO if you don't have confidence in the owner to do the best for the dog ie. not overbreed and only breed when the correct tests have been done/they are of the right age, then its not worth letting them have the pup in the first place.

    If it was endorsed that only one litter could be had and the KC agreed those endorsements were OK then the owner could not have another KC reg litter as the KC wouldn't register them. But this type of restriction might not be possible from what others have said.
     
  13. swarthy

    swarthy PetForums VIP

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    If the breeder only wants pet homes, I am assuming she normally gives the new owners a contract saying the endorsements won't be lifted under any circumstances?

    Ultimately, I would never try and judge anyone if they said they wanted to take a litter - it's about having confidence in the puppy buyer - so far, all those who have expressed an interest in taking a litter (subject to the required health results) have all actually ended up having their dogs neutered instead once they have realised the costs and work involved.

    If someone is going to go to the effort of finding a responsibly bred pup in the first place and is honest about their interest in breeding, I would have more respect for them than if they lied.

    In short, there is absolutely NOTHING to stop someone breeding a pup that is sold on - so - better to have a good contract in place that ensures if people are going to do it, they do it properly, and hope that they will follow their requirement through for a well bred pup by being prepared to do everything properly.
     
  14. AlbertRoss

    AlbertRoss PetForums VIP

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    The contract must spell out the endorsements and any other requirements. And it must be a 'contract' proper with each party having a signed, witnessed copy.

    Any endorsements not specified in the contract are null and void - and the KC will remove them without question.

    However, I don't think anyone has yet challenged in the courts whether or not the breeder actually has the right to tell the buyer what he or she can do with the animal once the contract is fulfilled (which happens when the animal is passed over and payment is made). The KC will uphold things like not being able to register a litter with them - but that's their rule - it's certainly not law.
     
  15. flufffluff39

    flufffluff39 PetForums VIP

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    When i worked in the breeding kennels the woman who owned the dogs made a contract to where you were'nt allowed to breed your bitch for 3 years. I never understood this contract??
     
  16. swarthy

    swarthy PetForums VIP

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    They won't - and I know someone with the evidence to prove it.

    The breeder gave a verbal agreement on the endorsements and when they went back to get them lifted, the breeder demanded £500 to do so - other people who had pups from her were already aware of this practice in her 'other breed' and made sure they got contracts at the time.

    The KC point blank to get involved as the puppy buyer was told at the time - even though it wasn't in writing and they frowned upon the practice of asking for money.

    Thankfully the stud dog owner wasn't quite so reticent and was willing to get involved with a positive outcome.
     
  17. nic76

    nic76 PetForums Member

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    i have also heard and read on a few pages that a contract does not really mean anything and once pup is out of your home thats it. hopefully the new owners wont see it like that but its a risk you take having pups that someone will more than likely have a litter from them and they do sell easily unregistered
     
  18. Spellweaver

    Spellweaver PetForums VIP

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    You beat me to Swarthy. The KC will not lift endorsements unless the breeder instructs them to.

    No, sadly, if the new owner decides to go ahead and breed, even if he wants to crossbreed, the original breeder can do nothing in law to stop him. The only deterrent (and it's not much of a deterrent unless the new owner wants to show the dog/sell any resulting litters as show dogs) is that if endorsements are not lifted any litters will not be able to be registered with the KC.
     
  19. AlbertRoss

    AlbertRoss PetForums VIP

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    I have had, personally, exactly the opposite experience. The breeder said nothing to me about endorsements and knew I was intending to breed. She didn't provide a contract. When the certificate arrived from the KC it had a 'no-breeding' endorsement. I got in touch with the KC. They assured me that unless I had a written contract with the breeder and the breeder could produce a signed copy they would remove the endorsement. They contacted the breeder who, of course, had no such contract and the KC immediately lifted the endorsement. The person I spoke to at the KC said that a number of breeders indulged in sharp practice this way - when the buyer wanted to register a litter of pups at some later date the original breeder would demand payment to lift the endorsement. She also said that they quite often lifted endorsements and my request wasn't unusual.

    From my point of view - as a buyer and in this case - this was simply sharp practice. But then, I don't agree generally with the original breeder having any hand in the breeding that I may want to do. The breeder's opinion isn't any more valid than mine as to whether or not a mating is a desirable one. And I don't accept the argument that any such breeding may 'dilute a blood line'. There are good reasons for endorsements - e.g. medical tests for soundness but those don't need breeder agreement if such endorsements were policed by the KC. But, that's an argument for another day.

    In law, I could have sued the breeder for adding the endorsement after the contract (i.e. the passing of puppy to me and money to her) had been fulfilled - on the simple basis that you can't add conditions to a contract after execution unless both sides agree.
     
  20. swarthy

    swarthy PetForums VIP

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    You haven't had the opposite experience, because as I said above, the breeder had verbally told the puppy buyer about the endorsements and that she would lift them subject to satisfactory health results (which the dog has in abundance).

    In your case - you say the breeder told you nothing about them, and this is wrong, and if proven, the KC will and I know have lifted the endorsements.

    The fact remains that if advised verbally, a 'contract' is still binding - my friend could have lied to the KC and said no they didn't tell her - but that wasn't her style.

    In this instance, the breeder wasn't refusing to lift the endorsements, they just wanted a rather large sum of money to do so - as it was confirmed to the KC that the buyer had been made aware of the endorsements at the point of purchase, they would not get involved.

    In law, the contract would have been made 'null and void' enabling you to be put back into the original position as if you had not purchased the pup, i.e., returning the pup for a full refund and probably the costs invested in any health tests - changing the terms of the contract in that way is not usually a way to benefit financially, but to be put back to your original position.
     
    #20 swarthy, May 24, 2010
    Last edited: May 24, 2010
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