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Breed standards for gundogs

Discussion in 'Dog Chat' started by rona, Jul 16, 2009.


  1. rona

    rona Guest

    What are your views on the breed standards for gundogs, particularly the retriever and spaniel breeds.
    I have owned working Goldies that have been bred ethically but they would never have been able to compete in the show world as most show
    goldies would be useless in the field. Does this mean that the people who are breeding these are not responsible breeders purely because they don't fit the excepted interpretation of the breed standard?
    No gun in his right mind would want a white Goldie sitting at his side in the middle of a stubble field on a pheasant shoot, the birds would fly around him.
    Also a rough shooting man wouldn't except a spaniel with enormous ears that are likely to suffer injury every time in entered a bramble bush.
    Why is it acceptable to produce dogs that have little hope of fulfilling the tasks that they were first intended for?
     
  2. Tigerneko

    Tigerneko PetForums VIP

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    I quite agree with you here. I always thought a show dog was meant to be fit for the purpose the breed was created for, but all I always hear is how working dogs can't be shown and how show dogs can't be worked. Wouldn't it be much more interesting to combine the two and have a beautiful dog which looks how it was originally supposed to as well as being able to work, rather than just being able to stand still for a judge?

    I can understand people making changes to breeds to combat health issues, but much of the show breeding seems to have just created health problems, e.g. the terrible shapes of GSD's that are deemed acceptable for show :(

    I'm sorry but this does not look good to me. In fact, it looks uncomfortable and down right cruel:
     

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  3. davehyde

    davehyde Banned

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    i blame the judges to be honest.

    if they followed the spirit of the breed they would look for good working dogs within the breed standard.

    also too many judges are influenced by fashion and trends.

    i look at some of the american show goldens and i think what a gay looking dog.

    all blowdried and cut to shape.

    check the bodywork not the paintjob.

    obviously all this is irrelevant if it is just a pet but a show dog should really emulate the working example too.
     
  4. Nicky09

    Nicky09 PetForums VIP

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    I definately agree with you. I don't know much about gundogs admittedly but from what I've been told most of the show lines would never do well in the field. I agree with the gsds too show lines *shudders* especially when its puppies. I can't udnerstand why people would want dogs that couldn't do their jobs I would say do compulsory working trials but well they demand that gsds in Germany have working titles and they're looking more deformed by the year
     
  5. rona

    rona Guest

    Good job the Goldie's have got breeders and judges like Tashi :thumbup:
     
  6. Deerhounder

    Deerhounder PetForums Senior

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    I think all dogs should be capable of doing the job they were originally bred for.

    From reading old dog books I gather that in the first half of the 20th century no gun dog could achieve it's show championship title unless it had also proved itself in the field. I think other breeds, some of the terriers and hounds, had to prove themselves in the field as well. This was in Ireland I think (?). Any way I think it was a great idea. It's a shame it is no longer done.

    Australia and New Zealand were the first countries in the world to recognise the Border Collie as a show dog. My BC, Holly, was born in 1975. Her parents and grandparents were worked as well as shown. They also did very well in sheep dog trials. So Holly came from lines with good conformation plus working ability. At that time many people were breeding Borders purely for show, pet and obedience. Many of these dogs were way oversize and much too heavy. None of them looked capable of doing a day's work but this was the type judges were favouring.

    You can guess what happened. Border Collie breeders didn't try to correct their mistakes and return to the type described in the breed standard. Instead they changed the breed standard to allow for the bigger, heavier dogs they had created.:mad: So now we have two different types. The working and the show type. Very sad.

    Getting back to gundogs I would be very much in favour of a return to field testing show dogs. At the very least no dog should be titled if it is gun shy for example.
     
  7. Nicky09

    Nicky09 PetForums VIP

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    Like I said the field trials would be amazing but well this was the original gsd trial they all had to pass to proove they could do the job. These are the dogs competing in that today because in Germany they have to pass either this or Schutzhund to be allowed to breed
    YouTube - GERMAN SIEGER SHOW 2008 IN AACHEN by EDUARDO DURÁN HAEDO
    Then again I felt so stupid at a gunddog display these beautiful thin dogs showing the retrieval I thought they were maybe flat coats or something asked someone no those are labradors. I'd never seen show and working lines together the difference was astonishing. I agree though they should have to proove working ability before they can breed as long as those tests are hard enough to actually prove it.
     
  8. Sleeping_Lion

    Sleeping_Lion Banned

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    As has been said, it's down to the judges, whilst dogs that are unfit to do what they were bred to do are awarded titles at shows, the breed will continue to diversify.

    What riles me is the term 'fit for purpose', where a lot of show dogs are actually put on specific diets to gain weight to appear 'fit for purpose'? How does that work? Surely a dog that is fit enough to do a day's work in the field is at it's optimum for showing? And surely the whole purpose of showing was to win the title of the best looking dog, that worked (way back when)?? As much as two stone extra baggage is put on some Labradors to show them, what on earth that does to their joints goodness only knows.
     
  9. Freyja

    Freyja PetForums VIP

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    My irish setter Zoe doesn't work but is show bred. Her grandsire was best in show at crufts and her grandsire I think on her dams side is a full champion (workingvand show). Both her brother and sister Danny and Connie are shown but both also work in the shooting season.

    A whippet I bred was runner up in the East Anglian puppy coursing cup at the age of just 12 months. They are not allowed to course until they are 12 months old and are classes as puppies between the ages of 12 and 24 months. He also used to work and hunted rabbits both at day time and on the lamp. He also worked with ferrets. Unfortunatley he was loaned to someone as a stud who then refused to return him hence is stolen.
     
  10. Sleeping_Lion

    Sleeping_Lion Banned

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    Sorry to hear about the whippet you bred, I hope they manage to get him back home.

    To my eye, albeit untrained, there doesn't appear to be a huge difference between working and show lines with setters, that is apparent in say Labradors, Spaniels and Golden Retrievers (as Rona pointed out). There don't appear to be many, if any, who are successful in both fields.
     
  11. Freyja

    Freyja PetForums VIP

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    The show bred setters tend to be slightly longer in the leg and more of a racier type than the working bred dogs. That is with the exception of Zoe who is so fat she looks smaller than she actually is.
     
  12. Sleeping_Lion

    Sleeping_Lion Banned

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    So the opposite of Labs then?? Where the workers tend to be longer and straighter legged, interesting!
     
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