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Brachycephalic breeds...why?

Discussion in 'Dog Chat' started by metaldog, Apr 13, 2011.


  1. metaldog

    metaldog PetForums VIP

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    I'm not keen on Brachycephalic dogs because they seem to suffer from a lot of health problems. I was wondering if there was historically a reason for Brachycephalic breeds being created (other than purely cosmetic reasons).

    Can anyone shed any light on this?
     
  2. catz4m8z

    catz4m8z PetForums VIP

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    I thought it was for drainage?? So when they grabbed a bull or boar the blood wouldnt choke them??
    (although its gone to extremes and Im fairly sure nobody ever took a Pug hunting!!:rolleyes:)
     
  3. Acacia86

    Acacia86 PetForums VIP

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    No. Thats a complete lie that some twit made up for an excuse :rolleyes:

    If you look back at Bulldogs in 'those' days you will find that they actually muzzles ;)

    There is NO REASON its purely because people preferred them to look like that. Obviously before the days of specsavers :blink:
     
  4. Tigerneko

    Tigerneko PetForums VIP

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    I don't know but I groom a Lhasa/pug mix and she is flat faced to the extreme, her teeth jut out and sometimes her nose seems to 'bubble' when she breathes, it can't be a comfortable life for her :( the fur under her eyes always gets wet and clogged up and it is so difficult to groom her into a 'neat' style.

    I don't know of a specific reason for it tbh... I think it is possible for them to be as healthy as any other breed but they're personally not my kind of dog really :(
     
  5. Acacia86

    Acacia86 PetForums VIP

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    Here is some photo's of the Bulldog. Its shocking.

    While the Bulldog has always had certain traits its truly shocking what has happened.............

    1st one: Bulldog drawing from 1803. The Bulldog was baiting Bulls back then.......doing its (horrid) 'job' so to speak.

    2nd one: The poor animal today :( :(

    3rd one: This is the vast difference in skulls from the 'old time' Bullie and todays poor excuse for a Bullie :(

    I love these dogs but would never ever own one as i WILL NOT buy into this. Poor poor dogs.

    Also while i HATED the fact these sweet dogs ever fought Bulls and the like in their past.......... ''fit for function'' just would never hold up in this breed, most Bullies i know struggle with decent long walks! Let alone fighting Bulls in the middle of day heat!! Christ it would kill most of them today.
     

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  6. Acacia86

    Acacia86 PetForums VIP

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    Pug drawing back in the early 1800's

    Pug today

    Again what a difference :(
     

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  7. hobo99

    hobo99 PetForums VIP

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    The modern day Bulldog to me looks like a badly deformed dog as do many dogs that have been " IMPROVED " by the breeders .:( , it seems madness to change the dog to the point that the poor thing has problems breathing , walking and giving birth ect.:rolleyes::
     
  8. metaldog

    metaldog PetForums VIP

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    OMG those photos are horrific, it's like a totally different dog. If there isn't a reason other than cosmetic how can people buy into it and watch their much loved pet suffer?

    It's not just bulldogs and pugs though is it? What about Boxers, Pekinese, shi tszu, King Charles Spaniel (not cav) and boston terriers etc? Is there any reason in these breeds or is that cosmetic too?
     
  9. myshkin

    myshkin PetForums VIP

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    [QUOTE
    There is NO REASON its purely because people preferred them to look like that. Obviously before the days of specsavers :blink:[/QUOTE]

    What Acacia said. My pooch used to have a bully pal, lovely wee fella, but couldn't run for a bus as they say. It used to disturb me hearing the noise he made just to breathe. I can't buy into it either, sometimes I look at what the KC and the like do and think it's just inherently cruel - I don't want to perpetuate a system that has dogs dying so young.
     
  10. catz4m8z

    catz4m8z PetForums VIP

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    How on earth could anybody prefer that look!!:eek: Mind you alot of my favourite breeds suffer the 'if only' factor.
    'If only' they were longer muzzled/longer legged/less wrinkly/etc.:(
     
  11. Bijou

    Bijou PetForums VIP

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    Why ?.....well it's because thats the way that people LIKE them - it's no coincidence that Pugs, Bulldogs, Frenchies, and Boston Terriers top the popularity stakes - people deliberately choose these dogs because they like the 'babylike' features bred into them - after all - how many times have you heard Pugs described as 'cute' :rolleyes:- - why a Bulldog and not a Kelpie ? why a Pug and not a Schipperkee ? - why a Boston and not a Manchester ? - I'll tell you why - it's because we are programmed to respond to the domed skull and big eyes that mean 'baby' to us - even breeds such as the Chihuahua, Shih Tzu, Lhasa Apso and Cavalier have been bred to enhance their 'babylike' qualities ( round skull big eyes) .

    Enchanting breeds such as Papillons, German Spitz and Pomeranians are much less popular than Pugs Chihuahuas and Cavliers - but then they have a more wolflike , (and natural) skull and muzzle - there's a lot of hypocrisy talked whenever this subject comes up - the plain fact is that despite their protests people do like flat faced breeds - heck these are the breeds that regularly sell for over £1000 such is their desirability - go figure !
     
    #11 Bijou, Apr 14, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2011
  12. Starlite

    Starlite PetForums VIP

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    The American bulldog is very much what the British Bulldog used to look like, hence the reason I prefer AM bullies :D

    I dont know if anyone saw the episode of "Dogs 101" which featured British bulldogs? They showed a bully who's line had been bred by a university for their football team mascot for about 50 years and when they comapared the pics from the 50's to present day the difference was really shocking!
    Try and watch the episode if you can find it x
     
  13. wiley80

    wiley80 Guest

    I have to say that our family has always had shih tzus and Lhasas for the past twenty odd years....never have we experienced any serious health problems with any of them...maybe we have just been lucky,who knows :confused:
     
  14. Snoringbear

    Snoringbear PetForums VIP

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    I agree with Bijou regarding our inbuilt reponse to cute and juvenile animals. It's also a natural aspect of neoteny that goes hand in hand with domestication in which the animals become more childlike to appeal to us. There's a fuller explanation here Neoteny - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia with some unseful links.

    I don't think the very old proper bulldogs were undershot at all. There is some nonsense bandied around that it improves grip, allows the dog to breathe and the wrinkles channel blood away from the eyes. Personally I think this is drivel and just a made up history to excuse the modern apperance, but this is something you see in most breeds. One thing that will shorten a dogs muzzle is breeding for a broader head, which will draw the nose in creating an undershot and producing the wrinkles. Whereas a longer muzzled dog will have a narrower head. This is explained in the Saga of the Dogue De Bordeaux, a breed that demonstrates this.

    I've added a couple of pictures the one with three skulls are of various bulldogs, two of which predate the skull Acacia posted. From left to right they are dated pre 1860, 1867 and 1906. The last one is clearly the modern dog (a puppy here), while the far left is the very old proper bulldog. You can see a slightly shorter but broader head in the middle one. The second picture is the skull of modern dog that is virtually identical to the old bulldog. You can probably guess what it is.
     

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  15. Old Shep

    Old Shep PetForums VIP

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    I read somehwere (sorry, I can't remember where) that when dog "breeding" became fashionable, certain traits emerged and were given a reason retrospectively. So, when breeding for, say, a particular coat pattern, another feature may emerge, such as shortened legs, and if they liked this they would then assign a reason for it, such as "allowing them to work closer to the groun". The whole thing was false and entirely made up to fit fashion.
     
  16. Bijou

    Bijou PetForums VIP

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    fascinating ! - but my goodness just look at that 3rd Bulldog skull - it's the stuiff of nightmares :eek: - I figure I must be less maternal than those that like this kind of physiology I really cannot see the attraction of Brachycephalic breeds - give me a good old wolf dog shape anytime !! ;)
     
  17. tripod

    tripod PetForums VIP

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    Shorter muzzles gives wider muzzles which allows bull breeds grab and hold more efficiently.
    But the exaggeration of modern day breeds does not improve this and is obviously not contributing to health a whole lot :rolleyes:

    The high forehead of juvenilised dogs is seen in lots of breeds not associated with bull breed history such as Poms, Jap Chins, Cavs and so on.

    Modern pibbles and classic Am Bulls are prob the healthiest of the brachy dogs, some with slight degrees of undershot-ness.
     
  18. Nicky10

    Nicky10 PetForums VIP

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    There's an old poem about pekes a few hundred years old I think that says they were bred with short faces, bandy legs and heavy coat so they couldn't walk very far :rolleyes:. But I was watching old Crufts footage and the pekingeses looked much more like tibetan spaniels do now and they were way ahead of the handlers strutting around the ring not 2 feet behind moving at a "stately" waddle. It's just because dogs with shorter muzzles were winning in the ring so they bred them with shorter faces same as german shepherds with their back ends nearly on the floor or shar peis having to have their eyelids tacked because of the amount of wrinkles. Plus of course the public like them more exaggerated and some people just don't care about the dog's health as long as they get a cute puppy/lots of show awards.
     
  19. CheekoAndCo

    CheekoAndCo PetForums VIP

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    I don't really find breeds with flat faces or short muzzles cute. I much prefer dogs with long faces so the 'baby faced' thing doesn't work for me I'm affraid :p
     
  20. Bijou

    Bijou PetForums VIP

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    but is this REALLY true - I can think of no prey animal that is brachycephalic - if this type of skull was most efficient for killing then would not dogs ancestors have naturally developed it ( after all they relied on killing to survive ) - think about wolves, jackals, coyote, dingos and well just about any other wild dog species and not a single one has developed the bull breed head type ....do they not also need to grab and hold efficiently :confused:.

    I do wish that people would be honest about this - the fact is that Brachycephalic breeds exist becsue people like them like that - and human nature being what it is, a little of what you like soon becomes a lot more - hence the terrible exaggeration we see now - as long as people like their dogs this way they'll continue to be bred .
     
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