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Boris

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by rona, May 12, 2020.


  1. Rafa

    Rafa PetForums VIP

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    I think a few things need to be remembered.

    He's human and humans make mistakes.

    He has had an absolute Baptism of Fire as Prime Minister.

    First, he had to get this Country out of the shambolic mess it was in because of Brexit. He achieved that.

    Before he had even time to draw breath, he's pitched into dealing with a pandemic, something neither he nor any of us has ever had to deal with. So easy to judge and criticise when you have the security of knowing you'll never be in that situation yourself.

    He then contracts the virus himself and has clearly got himself back to work as quickly as he could - something for which he's now being criticised.

    He's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

    He's under pressure to continue lockdown, yet also under pressure to try to protect the economy and also the livelihoods of small business owners. He's also under pressure to consider the potential mental health issues which could be caused by people being isolated and unable to have any contact with their Families/Friends and the outside World.

    I believe we all know what we should be doing ……….. we're not children. He can ask us to use common sense, do the right thing and behave like responsible adults but sadly, many don't appear to be able to do that. Last Friday, using VE Day Anniversary as an excuse, many organised and attended street parties. Utter madness.

    But, let's blame it all on Boris.
     
  2. O2.0

    O2.0 PetForums VIP

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    First off - don't know much about BJ other than his initials make me giggle and that I have enough of old white men with bad hair who treat women (hell, minorities in general) badly.

    That said, I don't think any of us can claim to know the best way to proceed here. It's completely uncharted territory. Say what you will about the Spanish Flu a century ago, we're in different times, have different scientific and medical capabilities, and our world is much more global.

    The truth is, open up slowly or quickly, carefully or less so, we're not going to know which was the best approach until years - decades down the line.

    The virus may mutate and become less virulent. Or not.
    We may get an effective vaccine by the end of the year. Or not. It's very possible we may end up with a vaccine like the one for the flu that's about 30% effective, 60% in a good year. Even with a flu vaccine we still get a big chuck of people getting sick. The same could continue for covid-19 indefinitely. Or it could be like the polio vaccine that's pretty much 100% effective if you get your boosters.
    We may find an effective treatment with a readily available drug. Or not. There are many viruses out there that we know about that we haven't figured out how to treat.

    At the end of the day, we just don't know. And no matter what any leader decides, it's going to be the 'wrong' decision to different groups. Some people want to get back to normal-ish, for legitimate, non frivolous reasons. Others want to continue to quarantine - also for legitimate non frivolous reasons. There is no right or wrong here. Only history will tell, and what history will tell is that we flat didn't know.

    Good old Maya Angelou, "Do the best you can until you know better, and when you know better, do better." I really think most leaders (except Trump) are doing the best they can. And I'll even say that maybe even Trump is doing the best he can with his limited capacity for intellect and empathy.
     
  3. Pawscrossed

    Pawscrossed PetForums Senior

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    I can imagine that the Prime Minister is still unwell. I am not fifty percent after getting the virus and spending time in hospital about the same time. I still cannot climb stairs and I would think I am fitter and healthier than he. To me he is the same inefficient orator.

    But his health doesn’t excuse his prior actions. He boasted that he shook hands of patients when the science said not to, this is not hindsight, it is irresponsible. He let Cheltenham go ahead when football games were being stopped. Until this weekend people were not being quarantined at airports. He had - has - access to this science and experts. He did ‘know better’ then or,are we to believe FIFA knew even better. It is his job now and then because he sees all the cabinet papers.

    People might/do hang on his every word and follow his actions. I much prefer he were a honest man who knew our fears. I hope he gets better so he can do his job better, then nobody else will be ill. I am pleased he is being called to account and checked, it is important.
     
    #23 Pawscrossed, May 12, 2020
    Last edited: May 12, 2020
  4. Jesthar

    Jesthar PetForums VIP

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    I think you are right about this with BoJo, although probably not in the way you meant.

    BoJo is a confrontational personality. He naturally leans towards an aggressive, belligerent stance, and doesn't often seem to be able to rein in that instinct (plenty of evidence for that in his approach to Brexit 'negotiations'). Likewise, if he's caught off guard, his instinct is to try and defiantly bluster his way out of trouble. I rather suspect he would like to be remembered as the Churchill of this generation - certainly he likes a similar style of rhetoric.

    Problem is, Covid-19 doesn't give a stuff about any of that. You can't bluster it out of existance, it's immune to rhetoric, and doesn't give a toss about two world wars and one world cup with a side order of Blitz Spirit. Nor can you bully or threaten it into submission - even our US cousins are having realise military prowess is no use in this battle. It's just toddling along doing what viruses do - finding hosts, multiplying, and finding more hosts. And, unfortunately for us, it's very good at that. The only way to beat it is to avoid it as much as possible.

    And yet, despite all that (which, lets face it, is pretty obvious stuff) BoJo doesn't seem to have been able to switch gears into a defensive strategy for our nation. From the initial (and completely ridiculous) herd immunity idea, to delaying lockdown (which other countries had already proved was a bad idea), to managing to continually make lockdown guidance more mind-bending than the plot of The Matrix trilogy, it's more or less been a series of attempts to appear a bold and daring leader even though plain old common sense makes it obvious steady and cautious is the only sensible option. I was really hoping his personal brush with Covid-19 would have made him take a step back and re-evaluate (especially as things seemed to hold steady whilst he was unwell), but I have to confess I'm starting to think that hope was in vain.

    I'm just thankful that my workplace have gone "The latest guidance is stupid, we're carring on as we are" ;)
     
    #24 Jesthar, May 13, 2020
    Last edited: May 13, 2020
  5. Happy Paws2

    Happy Paws2 PetForums VIP

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    I don't care what he says, I think his moving to fast, We are lucky we have both had a letters that tells us to at home and unless it's something urgent we aren't going anywhere!









    Edited... :oops:missed a word out
     
    #25 Happy Paws2, May 13, 2020
    Last edited: May 13, 2020
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  6. MilleD

    MilleD PetForums VIP

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    The point is, even if you hadn't had those letters, no-one is forcing you to go anywhere.
     
  7. Happy Paws2

    Happy Paws2 PetForums VIP

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    I know, I was just saying I think it's too soon.
     
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  8. Boxer123

    Boxer123 PetForums VIP

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    Depends on your line of work I have friends in their 60s who are teaching assistants in special schools. No shielding letter they are expected back in June they are terrified.
     
  9. MilleD

    MilleD PetForums VIP

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    It wasn't a general you, I was replying to HP.

    No place of work should be allowing people back unless that space is absolutely safe, this has been reiterated over and over. If there is no way of making it safe, then it shouldn't reopen.

    I know Jesthar will say that some people will have no choice and unethical employers will use people not wanting to work in an unsafe workplace to get rid of people, and those companies need reporting. If you feel your workplace is a risk to your health, it's enshrined in law that you can refuse to go in. Perhaps that is what needs making more clear.
     
  10. MilleD

    MilleD PetForums VIP

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    Honestly, the economy won't last much longer. The fallout from that crumbling will be worse than anything that has happened yet.
     
  11. MollySmith

    MollySmith PetForums VIP

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    I absolutely agree with all you have said.

    I don’t disagree with anyone who has said he and his government have been thrown into unprecedented times (in a fractured and divided country due to Brexit) and being ill must be very frightening especially when he must be in position to know a lot about it. I agree, I figured it might make him more aware. This war language is weird too, it’s like those who die don’t fight hard enough and if he’s trying to emulate Churchill. Then yesterday he said ‘Wack a mole’ in the way to fight the virus in the Times which is hardly the tone of someone in authority in my opinion.

    We do have to take personal responsibility and our own feelings into account. I locked down two weeks before they said and will stay so, I’m thankful I can. But one doesn’t have to stray too far into social media to see scientists, medical professionals and bodies, unions, business groups, leaders and parents all confused and worried by the messages. Wales and many seaside towns are concerned that people will put communities at risk by visiting (see Snowdonia on 14/15 March) and there is the risk of litigation for businesses and exercising of employment acts. Worse death. His prerecorded message and guidelines need to provide stability and reassurance. It failed to do that for many. If the audience largely doesn’t understand then the research is wrong - it’s a basic business communication fundamental. But gaps mean people might die so it has to be crystal clear.

    It is unfair to place entire blame on him, he is guided by science, medicine, advisors but he does have to take overall responsibility and gain trust. I always thought his forgetfulness and fluff was an act for Have I Got News For You but seems like it’s actually him. Maybe.... it’s that we have a better opposition leader...who does his job (I digress)

    The errors of judgement by him (excusing the cabinet) since December when it became clear our world was at risk are horrendous. Had we been the first country with cases then there might be excusable but they aren’t. Missing meetings, not applying for PPE, airports - there were so many ways to slow it down and prevent it.

    On the upside many companies have adapted to working at home quickly and I’ve had 7 weeks of long days getting websites up for online sales and food delivery. It’s not going to save us from a recession but it’s good to see people taking initiatives. The best we can do is support them and small businesses.

    Either way I wish him and anyone suffering with the physical or mental health effects of the pandemic well, let lessons be learned (fast please!) and if you are back at work today or a key worker, stay safe.
     
    #31 MollySmith, May 13, 2020
    Last edited: May 13, 2020
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  12. MollySmith

    MollySmith PetForums VIP

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    Yes. This too. It’s a fine line and as a business owner I’m very concerned. My feelings back in March were that we need a tight lockdown. A short period is just about bearable for many if they have three months running costs in the bank. I still stand by that. Where we are now - a gradual creep back and the risk of a second wave isn’t bringing any signs of kick starting yet but it is too early to say, but people are nervous. I belong to several business groups and some are trying to carry on, but the message is clear, caution. Which means cutting down on spending, outsourcing, events, recruitment, travel. I am nervous of outsourcing as I can’t guarantee my suppliers have a back up plan in place if they are ill. So I’m cutting their income which I hate. Previously recruited people who are unemployed as they aren’t able to claim furlough still have no start dates. It will take years to recover.
     
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  13. MilleD

    MilleD PetForums VIP

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    @MollySmith I'm pretty sure you wouldn't know if you had a better opposition leader unless he was in the same position then we could complain about his actions too. Because I bet he wouldn't be perfect. The man who seems to think ALL the good decisions the government have made are down to him and all the bad ones down to them.

    Hindsight is indeed 20/20 :rolleyes:

    Apologies for the politics.
     
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  14. MilleD

    MilleD PetForums VIP

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    It is very worrying. I hope your business pulls through it.
     
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  15. MollySmith

    MollySmith PetForums VIP

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    I did say in the post I wrote ... and deleted, wished I didn’t as I’m almost writing it again!... that any party and any leader would’ve struggled.

    But I think Starmer is doing a fair job so far. We digress!
     
  16. MollySmith

    MollySmith PetForums VIP

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    Thank you.

    edited to add that I think rather than focus only on kick starting the economy it is a chance to look at how the economy runs, how we do business, how we work, commute and adapt. How each of us spend money and where, and maybe pledge an allegiance to the rise of the small shops and takeaways who have been extraordinary where I live. One has to see opportunities too. People don’t need the government to do that.
     
    #36 MollySmith, May 13, 2020
    Last edited: May 13, 2020
  17. Happy Paws2

    Happy Paws2 PetForums VIP

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    As you this is about politics so I can't answer your post, but I'd really love to.
     
  18. rona

    rona Still missing my boys

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    What is this about politics, is it banned on the forum?
    This isn't the coronovirus thread
     
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  19. rona

    rona Still missing my boys

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    Just tried to look for the rules..........Where are they hidden these days?
     
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  20. MissSpitzMum

    MissSpitzMum PetForums Senior

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    It'll be pot luck for employees depending on how nice their employer is. The legal protection outside of unions is pretty shoddy, you can't expect someone on minimum wage to risk losing their pay just to report their employer which will inevitably be held up in a long, exhaustive process.

    Then you have travelling to work. So many people will need to take public transport to work otherwise they just can't get there. So workers are expected to put themselves at risk travelling to work whilst members of the Government have said they would 'never do it themselves.' As it is outside of the workplace, employers don't have to put anything in place for their staff. So what can workers do other than put themselves at risk - go hungry? Homeless?

    I work in education, which has fantastic unions. Despite this the rhetoric with schools reopening always centres around the children. Children are less likely to get it so schools should reopen - what about the staff? I'm young (ish) but many of my colleagues aren't. On teacher twitter you keep hearing of practising teachers passing away from the virus, all in their 60s. How on earth are schools going to become a safe environment for members of staff in their current state? We don't have the space or staff to reduce class sizes enough for any form of social distancing. In one of the schools I taught at I quite literally touched the first row of desks whilst presenting from the whiteboard because there just isn't room.
     
    #40 MissSpitzMum, May 13, 2020
    Last edited: May 13, 2020
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