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Bolting dog....help please!

Discussion in 'Dog Training and Behaviour' started by Ponge69, Nov 1, 2012.


  1. Ponge69

    Ponge69 PetForums Newbie

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    I have 2 gorgeous cocker x bichons, 18 months old. Brother and sister, which I now know doesn't help.

    The problem(s) are that whenever they see an open door they bolt through it and no amount of calling will get them back. Generally it's the bitch first followed by her brother. They have no respect for the roads either.

    I realise I need to go back to basics, obviously the recall needs working on first, but what about the doors? I make them wait before going through the front door or out of the car, but if someone takes too long coming in they're gone.

    I'd hate for them to cause or have an accident.

    They have very strong prey drives which we are also unable to train out too.

    Ideas please.

    Angie
     
  2. smokeybear

    smokeybear PetForums VIP

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    1 Environmental management, use a gate if you have to open a door, put dogs in a crate, put them in another room, tether them.

    2 Attach a lead, I would not EVER consider NOT using a lead when getting my dogs out of the car or when leaving the house, it is totally inconceivable that I would put my dogs or other at risk.

    3 Train a recall.

    4 Go to classes, many of use have dogs with extremely high prey drive, that is not the issue. You cannot train out prey drive.

    The issue is that you have absolutely no control over then and choose not to use environmental management or leads.
     
  3. Blade

    Blade PetForums Junior

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    As smoky says in above post, back to basics and also some thought on a gate may be the best option. I have two dogs who would do exactly the same if I gave them half a chance!
     
  4. Ponge69

    Ponge69 PetForums Newbie

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    AT NO POINT DID I SAY THAT I DON'T USE LEADS.

    they always have a lead on when out of the house, in the car etc. it's when the kids are coming in from school with friends or guest arrive. They see an opportunity and are very quick. We don't leave leads on indoors as they use them to drag each other around.

    We have stair gates and fences. I want to train them so the house does not have to become a fortress.

    We have attended 2 rounds of training classes, both dogs behaving impeccably.

    I wanted support and guidance. I now know this was not the place to look for it.:mad:
     
  5. Jobeth

    Jobeth PetForums VIP

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    Can you shut an inside door when someone knocks as that is what I do.
     
  6. Ponge69

    Ponge69 PetForums Newbie

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    We do try to shut them in before they get to the door but they are quick and hear way before we do that someone is coming.

    I just thought training the behaviour would be better than always trying to shut them away.

    I know the recall is the problem, but they come back out on walks etc.

    Thank you. :001_smile:
     
  7. ouesi

    ouesi Guest

    I’m not sure I’m understanding correctly.
    Are the dogs escaping when you open the door? Or is it that visitors come over and let themselves in? Or visitors are already over and they are not careful with doors?

    If visitors are coming over and letting themselves in simply lock doors so that you or a family member who knows to leash the dogs before hand is the one opening doors.

    If its that visitors are there and open doors without paying attention, make it a house rule that when there are visitors over dogs get crated or leashed and tethered.

    The above are management techniques to employ while you work on the actual issue which is two fold - no recall and no impulse control.

    If you’ve been to classes, try talking to that trainer again about impulse control exercises, teaching a place, go to mat cue. For recall, search smokeybear’s posts for recall advice, she has one that she posts all the time that’s very helpful.
     
  8. Dogless

    Dogless PetForums VIP

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    I have a dog with a very strong prey drive indeed; the key for me has been management techniques and allowing him to use it in appropriate ways.

    These two books are good: "Chase! Managing Your Dog's Predatory Instincts" by Clarissa Von Reinhardt and "Stop! How To Control Predatory Chasing In Dogs" by David Ryan.
     
  9. annapaws

    annapaws PetForums Newbie

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    OOo, poor you, it does sound like you've got quite a handful.
    Catching up with what others have said....
    There's 2 parts to re-training.
    1. Is to stop the behaviour happening in the 1st place
    2. Is to train the dogs a different behaviour.
    Unfortunately, if you don't get the management part right, and the dogs keep doing it, even from time to time, then you're 2 steps forward, 3 steps back all the time. Very frustrating for you all...

    So, although you don't want a fortress house, it will really help if you change the dogs' access to rooms that have outside doors - temporarily. Or perhaps use crates etc at kid coming home time etc. We need to break the habit as much as do pro-active training. Indeed, locking the doors will help too. And then you don't open the door until you have the dogs securely away from it.

    For training, you probably know this, so sorry if I'm saying things you already know, but you need to train each dog individually. Is there a "ring leader"? If so, start with that one first. Then things about what you want to teach - when door opens go to bed - for instance. Start off teaching your dog to go to bed by leading them there with a treat, and then once they'll do that, add a word - bed (or something else - mat - away - or actually "door!"). Work on that so that "door" means run as fast as you can to bed. The next stage, would be to have your dog safely on lead in the house, and have someone stand at the door, with it closed - and then practice the same thing. Gradually you work on getting the door a little open.
    Again, all this is done with 1 dog at time, and always keeping things safe.

    I'd also suspect that the general training in the house would benefit from some 1-1 time. Although they may be perfect in the class - have you done your "homework". It's highly likely that the dogs will be paying more attention to each other than to you? Does that ring true? Again, apologies if you've crossed that boundary already.

    There's so much more I could say here, but I hope that helps to get you started. 1-1 training help would probably help you to get your head around things too.

    There's more training notes and help on recall training etc here - at my pawsability.co.uk site

    You can get my contact number there too if you want to chat. And also links to recommended trainers and behaviourists.

    All the best & good luck with your training.

    annapaws
     
  10. smokeybear

    smokeybear PetForums VIP

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    As per Ouesi's post please find the following:

    Why can’t I get a reliable recall?

    ‘Come’ is no harder to train than any other behaviour but in real life it has a huge number of criteria that have to be raised one at a time in order to guarantee success.
    Often when puppies are brought home to their new owners this is the first time they have ever been separated from their dam and siblings and so they naturally attach themselves to their new family by following them about everywhere. Owners find this quite attractive and wrongly assume that this trait will continue into adolescence/adulthood, whatever the circumstances. A dangerous trap to fall into…

    At some point in time, usually from around 6 – 10 months, depending on the individual, “Velcro” dog will morph into “Bog off” dog (this is especially true of a breed that has been developed to exhibit a high degree of initiative). This is the time when owners suddenly realize that their dog will not recall when it sees another dog/person etc. Not only is this inconvenient but potentially dangerous as the dog could be at risk of injury from a car/train/another dog etc.

    How and when do I start with a puppy?

    My advice is to prepare for this inevitability from the day you take your puppy home. If you are lucky the breeder will have started this process whilst still in the nest by conditioning the puppies to a whistle blown immediately before putting the food bowl down during weaning.

    Dogs learn by cause and effect ie sound of whistle = food. If you, the new owner, continue this from the moment your puppy arrives you will lay down strong foundations for the future.

    By using the whistle in association with meals/food you need to establish the following criteria:

    • Come from across the room.
    • Come from out of sight
    • Come no matter who calls
    • Come even if you are busy doing something else
    • Come even if you are asleep.
    • Come even if you are playing with something/someone else
    • Come even if you are eating

    Once this goal has been realized in the house, drop all the criteria to zero and establish the same measures, one at a time, in the garden.

    Once this goal has been realized in the garden, drop all the criteria to zero and establish the same measures, one at a time, in the park/field etc.

    To train this, or any other behaviour:

    1. Make it easy for the dog to get it right
    2. Provide sufficient reward

    Do not expect a dog to come away from distractions in the park until you have trained it to come to you in the park when no diversions are around. Be realistic and manage your expectations; your sphere of influence/control over your dog may be only 20m to begin with, therefore do not hazard a guess that the dog, at this level of training, will successfully recall from 50m or more away. Distance, like every other criterion, must be built up over time.

    Some simple rules to follow when training the recall:

    • Whistle/signal/call only once (why train the dog to deliberately ignore your first command?)
    • Do not reinforce slow responses for the dog coming eventually after it has cocked its leg, sniffed the tree etc (you get what you train!)
    • If you know that the dog will not come back to you in a certain situation, go and get him rather than risk teaching him that he can ignore you. (If you have followed the programme correctly you will never put your dog in a position to fail).
    • Practise recalling the dog, putting him on the lead for a few seconds, reinforce with food/toy etc and immediately release the dog. Do this several times during a walk etc so that the dog does not associate a recall with going on the lead and ending the walk or being put on the lead with the cessation of fun.
    • Eventually, when the behaviour is very strong, alternate rewards ie verbal praise, physical praise, food, toy and also vary the “value” of the rewards, sometimes a plain piece of biscuit, sometimes a piece of cooked liver etc so that you become a walking slot machine (and we all know how addictive gambling can be)!

    In my experience recall training should be consistent and relentless for the first two years of a dog’s life before it can be considered truly dependable. You should look on it as a series of incremental steps, rather than a single simple behaviour, and something that will require lifelong maintenance.

    What about an older or rescue dog?

    Follow the same programme as outlined above however for recalcitrant dogs that have received little or no training, I would recommend dispensing with the food bowl and feeding a dog only during recalls to establish a strong behaviour quickly.

    Your training should be over several sessions a day, which means you can avoid the risk of bloat. It is essential that the dog learns that there will be consequences for failure as well as success.

    Divide the day’s food ration up into small bags (between10 – 30), if the dog recalls first time, it gets food, if it does not, you can make a big show of saying “too bad” and disposing of that portion of food (either throw it away or put aside for the next day).

    Again, raise the criteria slowly as outlined in puppy training.

    Hunger is very motivating!

    For those of you who believe it unfair/unhealthy to deprive a dog of its full daily ration, not having a reliable recall is potentially life threatening for the dog ……………

    How do I stop my dog chasing joggers/cyclists/skateboarders/rabbits/deer?

    Chasing something that is moving is a management issue. Do not put your dog in a position where it can make a mistake. Again you need to start training from a pup but if you have already allowed your dog to learn and practise this behaviour you may need to rely on a trailing line until your dog is desensitised to these distractions and knows that listening to you results in a great reinforcement. Chasing is a behaviour much better never learned as it is naturally reinforcing to the dog, which makes it hard for you to offer a better reinforcement. If you want to have a bombproof recall while your dog is running away from you then use the following approach:

    Your goal is to train so that your dog is totally used to running away from you at top speed, and then turning on a sixpence to run toward you when you give the recall cue.

    You need to set up the training situation so that you have total control over the triggers. For this you will need to gain the co-operation of a helper. If you have a toy crazy dog you can practice this exercise by throwing a toy away from the dog towards someone standing 30 or 40 feet away. At the instant the toy is thrown, recall your dog! If the dog turns toward you, back up several steps quickly, creating even more distance between the you and the toy and then throw another toy in the opposite direction (same value as one thrown)..

    If the dog ignores you and continues toward the thrown object, your “helper” simply picks the ball up and ignores dog. When dog eventually returns (which it will because it’s getting no reinforcement from anyone or anything), praise only. Pretty soon the dog will start to respond to a recall off a thrown toy. You will need to mix in occasions the toy is thrown and the dog is allowed to get it ie you do NOT recall if you want to make sure it does not lose enthusiasm for retrieving.

    For the food obsessed dog, you can get your helper to wave a food bowl with something the dog loves in it and then recall the dog as soon as you let it go to run towards the food; again if the dog ignores you and continues to the food, your helper simply ensures the dog cannot access the food and start again. (It is extremely important that the helper does not use your dog’s name to call it for obvious reasons).

    Gradually increase the difficulty of the recall by letting the dog get closer and closer to the toy/food. Praise the moment the dog turns away from the toy/food in the
    early stages of training. Don't wait until the dog returns to you; the dog must have instant feedback.

    Once the dog is fluent at switching directions in the middle of a chase, try setting up the situation so that it is more like real life. Have someone ride a bike/run/skate past. (It is unrealistic to factor in deer/rabbits however if your training is thorough the dog will eventually be conditioned to return to you whatever the temptation in most contexts).

    Until your training gets to this level, don't let the dog off-lead in a situation in which you don't have control over the chase triggers. Don't set the dog up to fail, and don't allow it to rehearse the problem behaviour. Remember, every time a dog is able to practise an undesirable behaviour it will get better at it!

    Most people do not play with toys correctly and therefore the dog is not interested in them or, if it gets them, fails to bring it back to the owner.

    Play the two ball game, once you have a dog ball crazy. Have two balls the same, throw one to the left, when the dog gets it, call him like crazy waving the next ball; as he comes back throw the other ball to the right and keep going left right so that YOU are the centre of the game and the dog gets conditioned to return to you for the toy. Once this behaviour is established you can then introduce the cues for out and then make control part of the game ie the game is contingent on the dog sitting and then progress to a sequence of behaviours.

    HTH
     
  11. smokeybear

    smokeybear PetForums VIP

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    Course


    How to Change Predatory Chase Behaviour in Dogs with David Ryan

    When: Sunday 12th May 2013

    Where: Otterbourne Village Hall, Otterbourne, Winchester SO21 2ET

    Details: 10am- 4pm registration from 9.30am. £35 per person, lunch included

    Throwing a ball for a game of chase is an enjoyable and rewarding experience for many owners and their dogs. For other owners canine chase behaviour turns into a nightmare when their dog chases cyclists, cars or sheep. When their dogs choose what to chase it can compromise owners financially, cause the target severe injury or even death, and threaten the life of the dog. This seminar looks at the reasons for the problem, the more effective solutions and how to control the behaviour.

    David Ryan followed 26 years as a police dog handler and Home Office accredited training instructor with a postgraduate Diploma in Companion Animal Behaviour Counselling, with distinction, from Southampton University, an internationally recognised centre of excellence for animal behaviour studies. In 2008 he was certificated as a Clinical Animal Behaviourist by the prestigious Association for the Study of Animal Behaviour.

    He was chair of the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors from 2009 to March 2012 and currently works as a companion animal behaviour consultant, being an independently vetted member of the UK Register of Expert Witnesses since 2008.

    David has appeared in the internationally scheduled television series ‘Crimefighters’ focusing on his remarkable and fascinating work with police dogs, and as a guest on the BBC 4 programme “It’s only a theory”, discussing how dogs have evolved to bark. His dog behaviour articles have appeared in publications as diverse as the Daily Telegraph, Woman’s Own, Your Dog and Veterinary Times.

    He has been invited at various times to lecture to the Companion Animal Behaviour Therapy Study Group, BSc Animal Behaviour Students at Bishop Burton College and Myerscough College, and Pet Rescue/rehoming Centres, including Battersea Dogs and Cats Home, Merseyside Dogs Trust and Wood Green Animal Shelter. He is currently a guest lecturer on Newcastle University’s MSc in Applied Animal Behaviour and Welfare.

    David’s unique blend of practical experience and theoretical knowledge of canine behaviour fuel his particular interest in inherited predatory motor patterns and the lengths to which pets will go to find a way to express them, usually despite their owners’ best efforts

    Events - Positive Training for Canines

    Books

    Stop! How to control predatory Chasing in Dogs
    by David Ryan

    Chase! Managing Your Dog's Predatory Instincts
    By Clarissa Von Reinhardt

    Total Recall
    By Pippa Mattinson

    Teach your Dog to Come When Called
    By Erica Peachey

    DVDs

    Really Reliable Recall
    by Leslie Nelson

    Training the Recall
    By Michael Ellis

    Your clever dog: Getting your dog to come when called
    by Sarah Whitehead

    Does your dog whizz back to you as soon as you call his name?
    Can you call him to you even when there are other dogs or distractions? Teaching your dog to come to you when you call is the cornerstone of training and the gateway to allowing him more freedom in the park.
    If your dog has selective deafness, ignores you in the garden or the park, or would rather play with other dogs than come when you call, this specially designed training session is for you.
    Ideal for starting out with puppies or rehomed dogs, and also for dogs that ignore you or are slow to come when called, despite previous training.
    Including:
    • How to know what’s rewarding for your dog and what’s not
    • Five times when you shouldn’t call your dog!
    • Using your voice to call versus using a whistle
    • What to do if you call and your dog doesn’t come to you
    The pack contains: A clicker, long line (worth £10), training manual, instructional DVD: 55 mins approx running time including Bonus trick, Bonus Training Session, Intro to Clicker Training, Q & A with Sarah

    Dogtrain.co.uk



    Website articles:

    http://www.apdt.co.uk/documents/RECALL.pdf

    http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/reliable_recall.pdf

    Deposits into the Perfect Recall Account

    List of Reinforcers

    Distractions For Your Recall

    Recall Collapse | Susan Garrett's Dog Training Blog

    How to Create a Motivating Toy

    http://www.cleverdogcompany.com/tl_files/factsheets/Training a whistle recall.pdf

    Teaching Come « Ahimsa Dog Blog

    How do I stop my dog chasing?

    http://www.pawsitivelydogs.co.uk/recall.pdf

    http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/come-at-the-park

    Teaching Your Dog to “Come When Called” | Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS

    http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/b...squirrel-teaching-a-reliable-come-when-called
     
  12. BoredomBusters

    BoredomBusters PetForums VIP

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    Where abouts are you? Teaching dogs to wait at doors is really easy when you know a few simple techniques, but if they really are bolting out it could be that they are understimulated and possible underexercised, so you'd need to address that too if that's the case.
     
  13. kenny10

    kenny10 PetForums Member

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    Hi, all your advise is very interesting, you are obviously very knowledgeable where dog's are concerned.

    We have a lovely well mannered 7 month old springer spaniel, unfortunately we have one major issue which is: his recall once we get near trees in the park is virtually non-exsistant. We have bought a flexilead which we have used for 2 weeks now,we have concentrated hard on pure recall. As we were confident that this would have made an impact we took him to the park today and let him off the lead.On most occasion's he came back from the trees with the whistle, however we had 2 occasions when it was a gud 3 minutes before he returned, Help what are we doing wrong..


    How to Change Predatory Chase Behaviour in Dogs with David Ryan

    When: Sunday 12th May 2013

    Where: Otterbourne Village Hall, Otterbourne, Winchester SO21 2ET

    Details: 10am- 4pm registration from 9.30am. £35 per person, lunch included

    Throwing a ball for a game of chase is an enjoyable and rewarding experience for many owners and their dogs. For other owners canine chase behaviour turns into a nightmare when their dog chases cyclists, cars or sheep. When their dogs choose what to chase it can compromise owners financially, cause the target severe injury or even death, and threaten the life of the dog. This seminar looks at the reasons for the problem, the more effective solutions and how to control the behaviour.

    David Ryan followed 26 years as a police dog handler and Home Office accredited training instructor with a postgraduate Diploma in Companion Animal Behaviour Counselling, with distinction, from Southampton University, an internationally recognised centre of excellence for animal behaviour studies. In 2008 he was certificated as a Clinical Animal Behaviourist by the prestigious Association for the Study of Animal Behaviour.

    He was chair of the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors from 2009 to March 2012 and currently works as a companion animal behaviour consultant, being an independently vetted member of the UK Register of Expert Witnesses since 2008.

    David has appeared in the internationally scheduled television series ‘Crimefighters’ focusing on his remarkable and fascinating work with police dogs, and as a guest on the BBC 4 programme “It’s only a theory”, discussing how dogs have evolved to bark. His dog behaviour articles have appeared in publications as diverse as the Daily Telegraph, Woman’s Own, Your Dog and Veterinary Times.

    He has been invited at various times to lecture to the Companion Animal Behaviour Therapy Study Group, BSc Animal Behaviour Students at Bishop Burton College and Myerscough College, and Pet Rescue/rehoming Centres, including Battersea Dogs and Cats Home, Merseyside Dogs Trust and Wood Green Animal Shelter. He is currently a guest lecturer on Newcastle University’s MSc in Applied Animal Behaviour and Welfare.

    David’s unique blend of practical experience and theoretical knowledge of canine behaviour fuel his particular interest in inherited predatory motor patterns and the lengths to which pets will go to find a way to express them, usually despite their owners’ best efforts

    Events - Positive Training for Canines

    Books

    Stop! How to control predatory Chasing in Dogs
    by David Ryan

    Chase! Managing Your Dog's Predatory Instincts
    By Clarissa Von Reinhardt

    Total Recall
    By Pippa Mattinson

    Teach your Dog to Come When Called
    By Erica Peachey

    DVDs

    Really Reliable Recall
    by Leslie Nelson

    Training the Recall
    By Michael Ellis

    Your clever dog: Getting your dog to come when called
    by Sarah Whitehead

    Does your dog whizz back to you as soon as you call his name?
    Can you call him to you even when there are other dogs or distractions? Teaching your dog to come to you when you call is the cornerstone of training and the gateway to allowing him more freedom in the park.
    If your dog has selective deafness, ignores you in the garden or the park, or would rather play with other dogs than come when you call, this specially designed training session is for you.
    Ideal for starting out with puppies or rehomed dogs, and also for dogs that ignore you or are slow to come when called, despite previous training.
    Including:
    • How to know what’s rewarding for your dog and what’s not
    • Five times when you shouldn’t call your dog!
    • Using your voice to call versus using a whistle
    • What to do if you call and your dog doesn’t come to you
    The pack contains: A clicker, long line (worth £10), training manual, instructional DVD: 55 mins approx running time including Bonus trick, Bonus Training Session, Intro to Clicker Training, Q & A with Sarah

    Dogtrain.co.uk



    Website articles:

    http://www.apdt.co.uk/documents/RECALL.pdf

    http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/reliable_recall.pdf

    Deposits into the Perfect Recall Account

    List of Reinforcers

    Distractions For Your Recall

    Recall Collapse | Susan Garrett's Dog Training Blog

    How to Create a Motivating Toy

    http://www.cleverdogcompany.com/tl_files/factsheets/Training a whistle recall.pdf

    Teaching Come « Ahimsa Dog Blog

    How do I stop my dog chasing?

    http://www.pawsitivelydogs.co.uk/recall.pdf

    http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/come-at-the-park

    Teaching Your Dog to “Come When Called” | Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS

    http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/b...squirrel-teaching-a-reliable-come-when-called[/QUOTE]
     
  14. smokeybear

    smokeybear PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2011
    Messages:
    15,187
    Likes Received:
    8,996
    We have a lovely well mannered 7 month old springer spaniel, unfortunately we have one major issue which is: his recall once we get near trees in the park is virtually non-exsistant. We have bought a flexilead which we have used for 2 weeks now,we have concentrated hard on pure recall. As we were confident that this would have made an impact we took him to the park today and let him off the lead.On most occasion's he came back from the trees with the whistle, however we had 2 occasions when it was a gud 3 minutes before he returned, Help what are we doing wrong..

    Has your dog been off the lead prior to this time and have you had him since a puppy?

    If so, your dog has had 5 months of rehearsing not coming back.

    Also your dog is a Springer and thus genetically designed to "quest" and "quarter" and hunt particulary in the undergrowth, trees etc.

    Two weeks on a flexilead will not train your dog to recall.

    Two weeks is not enough to train anything.

    Also a flexilead is ALWAYS taut thus the dog knows it is always attached.

    When you recall him, what do you reinforce his return with and for how long?
     
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