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Bob Martin is poison

Discussion in 'Cat Health and Nutrition' started by Mandolio, Sep 26, 2017.


  1. Mandolio

    Mandolio PetForums Newbie

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    Please, please, please don't use any house spray or drops for animals (flea/tick/worm) etc. from the Bob Martin range. I've just had to do a mad dash to the vets after Monkey (my cat) started hypersalivating. We'd had a dog visit that had had a couple of fleas found on him. To be safe we vacuumed, cleaned, sprayed the room with carpet/upholstery spray from the BM range and closed the door for 24 hours with ventilation. After 24hrs he went in. That's when he started drooling profusely. Thankfully he's okay, but the vet said that the whole range contains permethrin, which can be toxic to animals, especially cats, and cause seizures, twitching, drooling, neurological damage, liver damage and even death. She said that one dog they'd seen had a hole burnt in its neck by the flea drops. How are they allowed to manufacture these products?!!!
    If your animals get any fleas or ticks, PLEASE only use the sprays/drops the vet recommends.
     
  2. MrShadow

    MrShadow PetForums Junior

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    a couple of years ago,there was quite a bit of media coverage about this,but nothing since.i always make sure to do my cats only with feline stronghold from the vets,ive never understood the concept of using dog flea treatment on cats or vice versa [which some people purposely do,i dont mean in your case which was accidental].
     
  3. Mandolio

    Mandolio PetForums Newbie

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    Hey, it's worrying how many stories there are of pets being badly hurt or dying from this stuff. In fact, in my case, it was a carpet spray for both cats and dogs. I stupidly didn't register the Bob Martin logo on the spray.
    I'll never again use their toxic ****!
    Mand
     
  4. Mandolio

    Mandolio PetForums Newbie

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    We only use cat products on Monkey too. There was no accident, it was a spray designed for carpet and - get this - pet bedding!! Jeez, why would they produce this rubbish?!
     
  5. chillminx

    chillminx PetForums VIP

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    @Mandolio

    Permethrin is a very common (and toxic) ingredient in household insecticide sprays. Nothing unusual about Bob Martin household insecticide in that respect. Without permethrin the insecticide spray is unlikely to kill the fleas.

    The one I use is called Indorex and I buy it from the vet and it contains permethrin.

    http://www.petsathome.com/shop/en/pets/virbac-indorex-household-flea-spray-500ml

    Previously I have used Acclaim Household insecticide, also bought from the vet's. It also contains permethrin.

    https://www.ceva.co.uk/Products/Products-list/Acclaim

    Another reputable make is RIP Fleas, which also contains permethrin.

    http://www.ripfleas.co.uk/

    Bob Martin Home Insecticide spray contains less permethrin than Indorex, Acclaim and RIP Fleas as it only claims to be effective for "up to 3 months" whereas the other 3 give protection to the home for a year after application. So the BM is a relatively 'safer' product than the other 3.

    Permethrin is toxic to cats which is why one has to be ultra careful when using a household flea spray. Perhaps you used too much spray or didn't air the room for long enough (close door for an hour after spraying then open windows wide to air for a couple of hours before allowing cat in room. ) Cats may salivate copiously (froth at the mouth) if they lick something bitter or alien tasting, it doesn't necessarily mean they have been poisoned. Although of course it CAN mean that too.
     
    #5 chillminx, Oct 1, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2017
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  6. Luna_2016

    Luna_2016 PetForums Member

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    As outlined by chillminx above, vets recommend indorex and that contains the active ingredient permethrin which is what kills the house pests. If you follow the instructions strictly and keep your cat away from the spray whilst its deployed and also for several hours afterwards, and make sure the room is well ventilated before allowing the cat back in the room you wont have any problems. We have treated the house multiple times on the advice of the vets and our cat has never been sick.
     
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  7. JessicaT17

    JessicaT17 PetForums Newbie

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    Can someone please advise, I applied Bob Martin spot on to my cat earlier this afternoon. I never knew of these awful effects it can have as I've used it a few times before with no problems. My cat seems to be scratching a lot with large clumps coming out. I have tried wiping off what I could with dry cotton pads as I read that wetting the area will speed up the process and allow it into the bloodstream faster. It's 3:30am now so has been almost 12hours since application. No other side effects present other than extreme scratching. How can I get this product off and make sure she is ok?!
     
  8. Calvine

    Calvine PetForums VIP

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    @JessicaT17: So many similar awful horror stories about Bob Martins if you look online (you could scare yourself to death, so don't). You are best to avoid Bob Martins and there are plenty of decent products you can get reasonably cheaply on-line. There is a chance with any product that your cat may have a bad reaction, but I think with BM the chances seem so much higher. I have been using Advantage now (available on-line) for a year or two which have been effective and safe. I have found that Frontline is ineffective, tho' it used to work pretty well originally.
    I'd do what you are doing, get off as much as you can, and then I'd ring the vet when they open in four hours and see what they advise.
    Let us know how she gets on?
     
    #8 Calvine, Dec 2, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017
  9. Mandolio

    Mandolio PetForums Newbie

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    If I were you, I'd wrap the cat up in a towel to stop it scratching you, and then thoroughly wash the back of its neck. Then, as previous stated, get it checked by a vet.
    Please try not to worry too much, as I'm sure she'll be fine, and it's only a temporary reaction. Better safe than sorry though.

    When I took ours in, the vet said that the reason Bob Martins is bad is that, unlike other treatments, the quantities of pemethrin aren't as well regulated in production. This is why many animals have reactions, whereas others are fine. We only use The treatments from the vet (Advantage and Indorex spray).

    In answer to the comment further above, which states I wasn't using the BM spray correctly: we had followed the instructions on the can to the letter, and actually kept our cat out of the room (which had been well ventilated) for two days, yet he still had that reaction. I wouldn't touch Bob Martin products at all now.
    In answer
     
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  10. chillminx

    chillminx PetForums VIP

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    May I please reassure everyone there is NO permethrin at all in Bob Martin spot-on flea treatments for cats. Permethrin is highly toxic to cats and it would be illegal in the UK to put it in products sold for use on cats.

    Permethrin is in the household spray, exactly the same ingredient as is found in all good household insecticides, e.g. Acclaim, Indorex, RIP Fleas.

    Bob Martin Clear spot-on treatment contains fipronil, which is also in Frontline, and other makes. It is an insecticide which is no longer effective in some parts of the UK. That is the only reason I would not recommend using Bob Martin Clear spot on, not because it is harmful to the cat.

    It cannot be any not be any more harmful to the cat than any other product which contains fipronil. Fipronil is the only active ingredient in Bob Martin Clear.
     
  11. Mandolio

    Mandolio PetForums Newbie

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    It's not about what ingredients are in it, but the percentage/measurements of the chemicals used. The vet said to me that it's well known that BM products aren't tightly regulated during production. That's why the cat range has the highest rates of death and toxicity reactions.

    This is a cat who was burnt from having BM drops put on.
     

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  12. chillminx

    chillminx PetForums VIP

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    If, as your vet says, it's "well known that BM products aren't tightly regulated during production" and are causing harm then why is it not being reported to DEFRA? DEFRA are strict about licensing of medicines and would investigate such claims and if they found them to be true they would withdraw the license. I am certain DEFRA would not adopt the laissez-faire attitude your vet is implying, to such a infraction of the law.

    If you can give me more details and individual cases of the evident failings of the Bob Martin flea products, I will report it DEFRA myself.

    There were reports in the UK news a few years ago about cats being harmed because owners had used flea treatments intended for dogs on their cats. (the dog products contain permethrin). Is this what you are referring to?

    Bob Martin Clear Spot-on contains fipronil as the active ingredient in the exact same amount as in other flea treatment spot-ons for cats that use fipronil.

    e.g. Frontline, Effipro, Beaphar, Libbox all contain 50 mg fipronil - the same as Bob Martin Clear Fipronil spot-on.

    If you would like to check for yourself, go to www.gov.uk and search for DEFRA's Veterinary Medicine Approval lists.

    I have known cases of cats reacting badly to flea spot-on treatments, (none of them Bob Martin products btw). One of my own cats got a nasty skin burn on his neck after a treatment with Activyl (different insecticide to fipronil); and a friend's cat got very sore itchy skin on his neck after treatment with Effipro. The cat made the sore worse by scratching it until it bled and got infected.

    There have also been cases on the forum in the past of cats reacting badly to flea spot-on treatments - various different makes. It is one of the known possible side effects of putting these strong chemicals on their skin.
     
  13. Paddypaws

    Paddypaws PetForums VIP

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    Whilst I am no fan at all of Bob Martin products I do agree totally with those comments from @chillminx. My own Wiggins had an awful reaction to Advantage drops that literally burnt the skin off his neck within seconds of application so unfortunately non of these products are totally risk free.
     
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  14. Torin.

    Torin. PetForums VIP

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    I mean, they are all insecticides, which are products designed to kill. Just ideally only the target species with minimal harm to the host.
     
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  15. Ceiling Kitty

    Ceiling Kitty Hides away from much through humour...

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    +1 to what Chillminx said.

    I'm my experience Bob Martin flea products are not very useful (because fipronil seems to be generating resistance and nitenpyram has no long-term action), but are no more or less dangerous than veterinary products.
     
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  16. Mandolio

    Mandolio PetForums Newbie

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    I believe they were reported to DEFRA and also a petition was raised in parliament, but both reports were rejected.

    As the company that makes BM is Bayer, I wouldn't have expected any other outcome. Without wanting to appear as a tin-hatted conspiracy theorist, Bayer have a history of attempted tampering with research and trying to manipulate evidence. They're also an enormous multinational organisation.
    Only this year they were discovered to have been trying to influence results on their own pesticide trials in relation to the negative effects on bees.

    https://www.ecowatch.com/bayer-bee-study-2457938599.html

    All I know is what I've been told, what I've read, and what other pet owners have discussed with me. It wasn't just my current vet. A previous feline specialist vet, in a nationally reknown animal hospital, told me the same thing (this happened whilst we were going through a cancer protocol for our previous, now sadly departed cat).

    In my lifetime I've had over 30 cats, and never had a single one react to any flea treatment in the way Monkey did. I've used every treatment. This was the first BM product I'd used.
    Monkey's respiratory system had become depressed such were the levels of permethrin used in the spray. We didn't over spray the room/furniture, and we left the room for 24 hours longer than it stated we should - fully ventilated - before allowing him back in.
    I understand what you're saying, but upon speaking to my partner, who works in chemical production, some factories aren't as stringent about levels within processing plants as others are; especially if it's an animal related product. There also doesn't appear to be the governmental or industry/monitoring concern shown to pet products as there is in human manufacturing processes. Moreover, we are talking about a government that has just passed law to state animals aren't sentient, and therefore feel no pain. I hardly think these people will risk pee-ing off a huge organisation such as Bayer if a few animal's well being is at stake.
    However, I'm not a vet, nor an animal specialist so I can only go on what I've been told by people who are.
     
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  17. chillminx

    chillminx PetForums VIP

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    Sorry I misunderstood, I thought you meant your cat reacted badly to the BM spot-on, not the household insecticide spray.

    International Cat Care says: "Although many products contain permethrin, (including insecticide sprays, ant powder etc) it is usually only the flea spot-on preparations that contain high enough concentrations of permethrin .....likely to cause significant toxicity to cats"

    If the BM household spray was the cause of your cat's illness, it could be the case there was a serious error in the concentration of permethrin in the spray you bought. In these circumstances I would have had the residue in the can analysed by a lab to determine if it was as you suspected. If it proved to be the case you would have had a claim against the manufacturer for your vet bills. Small comfort I agree, but if you had also publicised your experience on social media, it is likely to have had an impact on sales of the stuff you'd used.

    Yes, I remember reading that Bayer and Syngenta had attempted to undermine the study by the Centre of Ecology and Hydrology on the effect of neonicotinoid pesticides on bees, a study actually part-funded by them! These large wealthy companies cannot always be trusted to tell the whole truth, but luckily there are honest, independent scientists to challenge them.

    Icat Care also says:

    "Another important way cats can become poisoned [with permethrin] is when a dog in the household is treated with a permethrin-based spot-on and a cat then sleeps next to the dog, cuddles up to the dog, or grooms the dog. This can lead to enough permethrin being absorbed by the cat to cause severe poisoning. It is recommended that cats are kept away from dogs for at least 72 hours after a concentrated permethrin spot-on has been used on a dog"

    If, as you say, there genuinely is no government body currently monitoring the safety of pet medicines and household insecticides sold in the UK, it is something I will lobby my local MP about. I can also raise awareness of this situation in the Animal Welfare groups to which I belong.

    I will let you know how I get on. :)
     
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  18. Calvine

    Calvine PetForums VIP

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    True: you're putting a chemical on to the skin so you don't know until it's (maybe) too late if there might be adverse effects. If you use hair-dye/bleach, sure most tell you to do a 'strand test' before you start.
    I would be interested to know what advice, if any, the vet gave to @JessicaT17 tho' I don't believe she has reposted.
     
  19. Calvine

    Calvine PetForums VIP

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    I've used these successfully for some time, but I had one who got a bald patch with Stronghold at the point of application.
     
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