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Being firm?

Discussion in 'Dog Training and Behaviour' started by ShibaPup, Jun 29, 2017.


  1. ShibaPup

    ShibaPup PetForums VIP

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    I'm a naturally quiet person - I seem to work better with hand signals than verbal cues. We still do verbal cues - just takes us... well me, a tad longer.

    I get "You aren't being firm enough" "She needs to know when she's done wrong" "She needs to be punished" "You're too soft with her" from my OH a lot - we've had a few disagreements about it.

    Ok, yeah, she's stripped some wallpaper and ripped up vinyl flooring - both have been when we've been out so I don't see the point in punishing her on our return... it's not like she's going to understand what she's done and she hasn't gone back to damaging anything.

    To me - she's an opportunist and learning - she's very clever. I don't get his obsession with wanting to punish her and show her she's done wrong.

    It's enough for Lily to remove your attention from her and she's easily distracted/redirected - shouting only makes her stupidly excited - daft dog!

    When I visited our training class - which we start Wednesday there was a lot of shouting and people repeating themselves "Stay, STAY, STAAAY, STAY" "SIT, SIT, SIT, SIT" is that normal? I thought you proof a cue in such a way it doesn't need to be constantly repeated - the more you repeat the cue the more it confuses the dog or weakens the cue??

    Don't get "be firm" - surely a proofed cue, is a proofed cue, shouting isn't needed?

    This is all new to me :Arghh
     
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  2. kimthecat

    kimthecat PetForums VIP

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    I would avoid that training class!
    It can take dogs longer to learn verbal cues as they tend to read our body language . Persist with verbal cues though .
    Consistency and rewarding for the behaviour you want is the best way forward.

    ETA what annoys me is people just saying the dogs name when they want them to come or stop doing something. No cue or anything
     
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  3. 8tansox

    8tansox PetForums VIP

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    There is no need to raise your voice when training a dog, any dog. I NEVER ever repeat a cue, once and once only. I ensure I have their attention before I cue them, but that's the way I train, a gentle voice, almost a whisper (it's got me into trouble a few times being told I need to speak to my dog), well I am, but that's it, I'm speaking to HIM, no one else.

    The only time people hear me talking to my dog is when he's being praised and it's play time, then I speak in a high tone to encourage them to play.
     
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  4. JoanneF

    JoanneF PetForums VIP

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    I'm not the training expert that a lot of people here are, but just taking account of a dog's hearing being so much more sensitive than ours, we should really not need to shout. Now, I get that a happy excited voice or a sort of firm downward pitched tone will be heard differently but there's no need to raise the volume unless the dog is far off.
     
  5. ShibaPup

    ShibaPup PetForums VIP

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    This is the training group https://www.facebook.com/The-K9-Club-147303071996015/
    Seemed alright to me - it's confusing what to look for

    Haha - Lily's name is her cue to come over to me :oops: Works for us.

    I think the same - never trained a dog before though so I am clueless :Arghh:Arghh
     
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  6. lullabydream

    lullabydream PetForums VIP

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    I have always found dogs respond best to softer spoken voice when being trained...

    This 'firmness' strong voice bit I never get...you see those do it out and about...you know to those whose dogs which won't recall well...and as I walk past (mainly in the past as I am pretty anti social) I used to think to myself...yeah I wouldn't want to come to you if you spoke to me like that...it's all in the tone.

    Tearing up wallpaper, vinyl, carpet..it's self rewarding behaviour and yes would be useless doing anything about it, it's all a bit of a learning curve and what you can leave your dog unattended with when left...you are not the first and will not be the last. Could still happen with plenty of chew toys to stimulate, may not.So for safety, it could be the use of the crate whilst left unattended or a playpen. There is nothing wrong with either.
     
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  7. 8tansox

    8tansox PetForums VIP

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    The potential problem with that is though is that what if you don't want her to come over to you though? Say there is a road between you and her and the last thing you want is her to come to you?
     
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  8. kimthecat

    kimthecat PetForums VIP

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    :D I expect the trainers will teach you to say Come !

    The class sounds a little chaotic to me but Its hard to judge with out being there. look for sign of stress in your pup . dont be afraid to leave the class if you or Lily become stressed.

    some signs of stress are lip licking , yawning , moulting

    more here
    http://www.servicedogcentral.org/content/signs-of-stress-checklist
     
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  9. Twiggy

    Twiggy PetForums VIP

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  10. Siskin

    Siskin Look into my eyes....

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    I found with Isla, who was quite excitable as a puppy, was to get her attention onto me so we were gazing into each other's eyes almost. If we were doing a sit stay, then it was into the sit then as I walked slowly backwards I would be keeping eye contact and holding my hand out palm facing her in a sort of stay where you are gesture, rather then continually staying stay, stay, stay as some do.
    Any word that I train her with is accompanied by a hand signal, so that she learned both at the same time, word and gesture. So with recall I will call her name followed by 'come' then hold my arms out sideways (the hand signal).

    Teaching a dog hand signals as well as verbal cues is invaluable should your dog become deaf in its later years.
     
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  11. Twiggy

    Twiggy PetForums VIP

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    What is it with OH's, puppies and power trips - yours sounds just like mine ....LOL Don't take any notice as you are definitely on the right track.

    Personally I wouldn't go the that class, as it sounds as if the trainers are still in the dark ages. Most good training classes clicker train these days which certainly doesn't include shouting and repeating commands.
     
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  12. Muttly

    Muttly Fluffy Mutts Rule!

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    Exactly! I'm the same, but he hears me, dogs have great hearing of course. I don't need anyone else to hear me.


    I think you have a great attitude @ShibaPup and Lily is just gorgeous!
    I've never punished Muttly and he is a happy dog that loves to learn. He really does, he asks to do training :)

    I taught him hand signals, which has encouraged him to look at me more and check back with me often.
    I think signals are clearer than voice commands.
     
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  13. ouesi

    ouesi Guest

    Repeated cues make me twitch a little.

    Unfortunately so many people inadvertently teach the cue as "sit, siiiit, SIT" instead of "sit."
    Or as one trainer used to say, loud, repeated cues are a great way to announce your incompetence as a trainer to the rest of the room. :)

    Listen, my dogs can hear a crust of toast fall on carpet from the next room. I'm positive they don't need me to raise my voice for any verbal cues. If you have your dog's engagement and attention, there is no need to be firm (or loud) and if you don't have your dog's engagement and attention, being firm probably isn't going to encourage the dog to want to engage with you or pay attention to you.
     
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  14. Muttly

    Muttly Fluffy Mutts Rule!

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    Love that line :Hilarious
     
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  15. ShibaPup

    ShibaPup PetForums VIP

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    Showed my OH this - his reply "So what do you do to show her she's done wrong?"
    "Let them have Lily for a week - they wouldn't put up with her! I'd give them a couple of hours they'd soon give her back to you"
    "Look at your arms - she needs to be punished for that" my arms have 4 bruises because she nips - TBH it's an improvement to bleeding! It's my fault for not picking up quickly enough that she's getting too excited and carried away
    "You ain't hitting her, so you ain't hurting her" - He wants me to lock her in the cage when she's "naughty" - Lily panics when the cage door shuts; so I don't agree.

    Anyone want him?! :Facepalm:Eggonface


    I am struggling to hold her attention ATM - she's over the top, bit too eager and easily excited/frustrated; which turns into mouthing and biting - I thought the training class might help with that because I'm not quite sure what to do??

    Lily LOVES sniffing - want to try and encourage that - use it to my advantage, but I don't know where to start?
     
  16. ouesi

    ouesi Guest

    2 years ago my good friend who's also a very well-respected dog trainer got a beagle pup who was one of the worst biters! My friend showed up at some get together with scratched up and bruised arms. Most of us laughed, chalking it up to having a puppy in the house. One person was horrified and said their puppy never bit them and that she would consider it a huge problem if her puppy had bitten hard enough to do damage like what my friend was sporting on her arm.

    All this gal accomplished was to advertise her lack of experience with puppies. (Just like your OH is doing.)

    Some puppies are indeed sweet angels, but most are demon needle teeth monsters. I've told you this before, but our older dog looked like hell when our dane puppy was at her worst. His face, cheeks and neck were covered in scabs and scratches from where she just chewed away at him. And you know what? She eventually outgrew being a demon monster brat dog.

    Patience, consistency, and understanding wins every time. Rome wasn't built in a day. Human babies don't grow up in a day. Puppies don't learn not to bite in a day. It takes time, neuron connections, and developmental abilities. She literally does not have the impulse control yet to not bite. She will, but not yet.
     
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  17. Muttly

    Muttly Fluffy Mutts Rule!

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    Hell no! I definitely don't want him. But I would take Lily in a second! :D I have been through 3 puppies so far and one 10 month old that still acted like one as he was never trained a thing.

    I have bruises and scratches up my arms most days, because my 3 and half year old Terrier likes to play rough and I let him, so what, It doesn't hurt me and I do bruise easily tbh. I can stop him in a nano second and I don;t HAVE to play with him like this, but it's fun.
    But it's the least I would expect with a pup! You can try re-directing to toys or saying 'ouch' (it may not work given she's a terrier, it tends to excite them more sometimes).
    But yeah if she is nipping and getting over excited, then you need to be in control of stopping the play and giving her a time out. Not in a nasty way, but encourage her to have a nap or sit with something nice to chew on in her crate, door open.
    The crate should never be a place of punishment, you need it for situations like I have just said.

    Oooh the sniffing, Muttly is a big sniffer too. We play lots of sniffing games. Finding the toy, finding the treat.
    You can use this to your advantage because sniffing tires them out :)
    Hide some treats around and let her find them. Then add the words 'find it' as she is looking, then she will start to associate the two. Start off easy so she can learn what she needs to do :)
     
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  18. Sairy

    Sairy PetForums VIP

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    You are on the right track - ignore your OH. Lily does not require punishment - she is not deliberately being naughty, just doing what comes naturally to her. Things will improve for you in time. Holly was a pretty awful biter as a pup and there were times when it felt like she would never stop.

    One of the things I really enjoy about watching others train is you can learn some great tips from some people and some great "what not to do's" from others.
     
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  19. Sairy

    Sairy PetForums VIP

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    Just been to the training club website. Do you live in Cannock? If so then I live super close to you :)
     
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