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article-series: the D-word: DOMINANCE

Discussion in 'Dog Training and Behaviour' started by leashedForLife, May 4, 2010.


  1. Daggre

    Daggre PetForums Member

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    very interesting =) And that border collie pup is sweet :3

    'WITHOUT THE ‘D’ WORD, WHAT DO WE CALL DOGS'- I call it calm, or not so calm, assertive.

    I don't agree jumping up is personality, and it is impolite and sometimes dangerous. If I put dominance into your terms however I cannot call it dominance either. I think it is just disrespect on the dogs part. Dogs do not jump up at each other, and if they do, they are ignored by the other dog therefore they should treat us with equal respect. (My 10mnth still gets quite excited with other dogs and as soon as she starts putting her paws on top of them they don't want to play)
     
  2. tripod

    tripod PetForums VIP

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    Yeah but we are NOT dogs and socialised dogs get this - why is it so hard for humans?????

    Jumping up is pretty much accepted in the play of many individuals. But vertical play among most dogs is considered a deal breaker and often a precursor to escalation in anxiety signalling.

    Dog greeting is pretty frenetic though and then of course we don't teach our dogs self control. Plus and this is a big one we reward the dog for this behaviour otherwise it would not be repeated.

    Don't be so quick to label - what is the dog doing? Use that to form descriptions.

    The term dominance as used by the vast majority of doggie people is inaccuratley used at best and for the most part ambivalent cos everyone seems to have their own definition.
     
  3. leashedForLife

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    big truth, there -
    *dominance* as used in behavioral-science / ethology has a very precise definition -
    and as *the mcConnell* so clearly emphasizes, its all about resources - who gets it now, how much of it, who has to wait, who gets none...

    even with that, the Great Law of Dogdom says, The dog that has, gets it - 99% of the time.
    meaning if a bone is in somebodys mouth, THEY get that bone; if that dog can be persuaded to lay it down + walk-away,
    or drop it and race to the door on a false bark-alert from another dog who covets that bone,
    the bone is up for grabs - its no longer theirs.


    thats why abandoning my plate of food in the dining-room to go to the kitchen + bring-out my coffee
    is an invitation to any dog not otherwise taught to do the obvious, and EAT it -
    dogs are opportunistic eaters; the food is there, no one (by Dog-Law) owns it, yummy! :thumbup:
    5-seconds later as i re-enter the room, its NOT within my rights to whack the dog + scream, IMO -
    i screwed-up, the dog did not.

    it has zip to do with not accepting my authority :rolleyes: and everything to do with my not understanding dogs -
    if nobody is eating it, or lying beside it, its available.

    sadly not understanding dogs is not a rare thing among humans, even humans who live with various dogs all their lives,
    or train [or Do Not Train] their own or others dogs. anything + everything that humans do not like nowadays in dog-behavior
    is all too-often slapped with the dumbinance label, and THERE :p we solved it! no, it was merely labeled -
    and 999.99 times of 1,000 its been labeled wrongly. :eek:

    dominance as a term has become so muddled + distorted, i avoid it - period.
    it does nothing to clarify, it only confuses, and it casts dogs as our adversaries - which is very damaging.

    if U perceive dogs as instinctively + automatically rebellious, it cannot help but permeate the way U react to dogs -
    strip off the pre-conceived assumptions + the dumbinance-filter, see dogs as potential partners who need to be *taught*,
    and relations become a lot-less fraught. ;)

    cheers,
    --- terry
     
  4. Daggre

    Daggre PetForums Member

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    'Dog greeting is pretty frenetic though and then of course we don't teach our dogs self control. Plus and this is a big one we reward the dog for this behaviour otherwise it would not be repeated.'

    We make our dog sit, and then she is allowed to go and see the dog. This is only so she doesn't get into a habit of thinking 'o a dog, I can go nuts and say hello' instead she will know 'if I sit I can go and sayy hello' and is more likely to be calm because when she sat she had to stop and think. She doesn't jump at at people, because we don't allow it. She is told a firm 'no' and 'off' if she does. She now sits until told she can greet somebody at the door.



    'thats why abandoning my plate of food in the dining-room to go to the kitchen + bring-out my coffee
    is an invitation to any dog not otherwise taught to do the obvious, and EAT it -
    dogs are opportunistic eaters; the food is there, no one (by Dog-Law) owns it, yummy!
    5-seconds later as i re-enter the room, its NOT within my rights to whack the dog + scream, IMO -
    i screwed-up, the dog did not.
    it has zip to do with not accepting my authority and everything to do with my not understanding dogs -
    if nobody is eating it, or lying beside it, its available. '

    If you said leave however, the dog should have left it because that is what it has been told to do. The same as if you say sit, the dog should sit. If the dog did eat the food, I would say the best thing to do, would to be ignore the behavior, but when a dog, 'leaves' something praise. So that they get the message that we will be happier if they leave the food.
     
  5. leashedForLife

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    sort of, yes, daggre -
    but dogs must be taught to leave-it - not merely *told* to leave-it.

    its very possible that U are assuming that the dog has been taught this behavior, on-cue, and proofed from low-level
    (potato-peels, cabbage leaves...) thru high-level (tuna-salad, vanilla-pudding...) challenges -
    but many ppl never teach Leave-it at all, or never bother to proof it if they teach it.

    if i get up from the table, fix the dog eyes-on-eyes with a steely gaze, and announce sternly, Leave it -
    in Biblical-injunction tones while pointing to my plate, the dog will Not Automatically Know what that means.

    i have had clients who were far-from novice dog-owners get really pi**ed with their dog, because they TELL the dog SIT,
    flash a broad, hard palm-on Stop-Sign hand-signal, proclaim, STAY... like King Canute commanding the tide not to rise...
    and guess what? they turn their backs and march off, and the dog, looking puzzled, sits for a mo, then rises + follows...
    or lies-down + watches them go with no comprehension, and a few secs or a minute later, the dog gets up to go sniff.

    turns-out they never *taught* the dog Stay as a behavior - meaning, until i say otherwise, U remain in THIS position,
    and in this spot.
    often they have not *released the dog from stay!* at other times - my DoG, they leave the dog for work,
    and tell the dog sitting near the doorway, stay. :crazy: :p
    U gotta be kidding - do U really expect the dog to STAY in a sit, 8-ft from the door, for 8 to 9 hours? :lol:
    how about see ya..., instead? :) and a stuffed-Kong to keep the dog busy, not gnawing the leather-sofa or the baseboards?

    assuming that glaring, raised voices, exaggerated pointing, looming, hands-on-hips leaning toward or leaning-over the dog,
    and other threatening vocals or body-parl will make our directions crystal-clear to an un-taught dog
    is IMO shrieking-bonkers ;) its no different than shouting directions or objections in English at a Greek-cabbie in NYC.

    louder (voice, body-parl, untaught signals, etc) is no more comprehensible than the same, whispered -
    if the audience does not KNOW the terms / cues / language, its all gibberish.

    teach first, then proof - then use, + last, Practice -
    if U never have visitors except at Xmas, the dog needs practice in greeting friendly-folks sometime in the other 350 annual-days.


    practice makes permanent -
    have the dog *practice* what U want, not what U do Not Want -
    thats where management comes in, which to bring this back to the dining-room, would be anything to prevent the dog
    getting to my plate -
    put it atop the china-cupboard, carry it along to the kitchen, CALL the dog to come WITH me to the kitchen ;) or another option.

    management tip for not-yet trained / proofed dogs -
    one of my fave-ways to preclude counter-cruising is to put the tempting (open) item into the Oven or the Microwave -
    the phone rings? tuck the (coffee-cup, cereal, sandwich...) away, get the phone - no worries, mate! :thumbsup:

    happy training,
    --- terry
     
  6. Daggre

    Daggre PetForums Member

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    Yes, I was assuming the dog had learned 'leave' xD I see no reason NOT to teach it, such a useful command 9especially when sheep poo is involved xD). Star will nose the compost bin when you aren't looking, and will leave if you say. However if you aren'tin the room she has been known to drag out a teabag and destroy it= lots of mess D= However she knows she shouldn't, and this hasn't happened for aggges =)

    Best way to teach leave is to waft the treat under their nose and when they drop the toy reward. Star now just drops if you put your hand under her nose.

    People expect the dog to wait 8 hours?! We cage Star when we leave her because she will just go to sleep then.

    I remember at christmas, we hadour ham out on the side, we were all upstairs when there was a crash, she'd jumped up, knocked it down, broken the dish, and eaten the ham D=. We put her in a cage for a while, so we could clean it up. She's never jump up on the surface now though. Although it's funny when you have a piece of meat out and the dog comes and sits in front of you xD
     
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