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ART: "lots of energy expended re CM/DW, what about pervasive shock-collar use?"

Discussion in 'Dog Training and Behaviour' started by leashedForLife, Apr 19, 2011.


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  1. leashedForLife

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  2. RobD-BCactive

    RobD-BCactive PetForums VIP

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    Yes, but Cesar's on TV and portrayed as a prophet.

    When I see NYPD service dogs on TV, their training is rewards based, and their confidence is built up; they are also family pets for the handlers! One called Aragorn, was both patroll & search & rescue.

    If shock collar usage is pervasive there, they are keeping it off camera, presumably to avoid a public outcry?

    As it is, it seems lobbying for legislation is the only effective response to shock collars, as the practioners appear to disregard findings of studies, and are using the same tactics as Climate Change Denialists, trying to discredit the science & ignoring clear evidence of problems.
     
    #2 RobD-BCactive, Apr 19, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2011
  3. RobD-BCactive

    RobD-BCactive PetForums VIP

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    Unavailable in my country :(
     
  4. Lou Castle

    Lou Castle Banned

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    Steven R. Lindsay discusses this study in volume three of his "Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training." Here are some of his comments on it. Emphasis is mine

    He continues for quite a while. Making two additional points.

    He continues:

    This was an intentionally deceptive study, designed to reach predetermined conclusions that couldn't have supported the findings that it reached even if it had been competently done.
     
    #5 Lou Castle, Apr 20, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2011
  5. leashedForLife

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    * if U told me it was dark at midnight, i'd go outside to check. :rolleyes:

    * there are hundreds of other studies that support the take-home message that shock as a training-tool is more
    stressful, has greater potential for fallout, & those side-effects tend to be more severe than any side-FX of pos-R -
    AKA positive-reinforcement, reward-based training, or whatever other label one might prefer.
     
  6. Old Shep

    Old Shep PetForums VIP

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    Someone else made this point, but as far as I am concerned, it does not even matter if the evidence showed that electric shock collars actually DID train dogs because for me, inhumane methods are not an option.

    However, from what I have read the majority of scientific studies seem to show that they don't work longterm and/or cause other problems. There is a paucity of evidence which shows otherwise.
     
  7. Lou Castle

    Lou Castle Banned

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    And you'd discover that you're just as wrong as you are in citing this study. It's widely known as the most flawed Ecollar study ever done.

    There are just as many studies that show that this is NOT the case. If you'd care to cite them one or two at a time I'd be happy to point out their fallacies or show, as I just did, where others have.
     
  8. Lou Castle

    Lou Castle Banned

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    "Humanity" and "inhumanity" is just an opinion. Since you've never seen my work or any dogs that I've trained, you opinion is based on air. The Rescue organization I gave a seminar for thought they were GREAT! They purchased some Ecollars and are using them to train dogs in their care before they adopt them out to give them some reliable OB.

    Gonna have to call "nonsense" on this. But since you make the claim, please present those studies. I'd LOVE to see them. I've trained MANY dogs with Ecollars that I followed until they passed, including several of my own. NOT ONE OF THEM had their training "not work long-term."

    Show us those studies please. I've probably seen most of them and as I just did with this one, have put the lie to them.
     
  9. Jasper's Bloke

    Jasper's Bloke PetForums VIP

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    You are quite right Lou, it is down to a matter of opinion but that doesn't mean to say that yours is right and everyone elses is wrong. I am not surprised that the rescue you worked for were happy to use them as there seems to be a huge difference in attitude to these devices between the UK and the USA, just as there are with many other things.

    At the end of the day you can trade scientific studies with Terry until the cows come home but the simple fact is that no matter what evidence is presented people will always have their own perception of whether this method is right or wrong, and after all, perception is reality.
     
  10. Lou Castle

    Lou Castle Banned

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    Quite true. But I feel that since my opinion is based on my personal experience of having put Ecollars on over 3,000 dogs that my opinion has something behind it. I'd bet that most of the opinions of others in these discussions are based on such things as conjecture, hearsay, rumor and fear. NONE of these people have seen my work! Our relative experience should be should be taken into account when these folks are trying to influence others.

    I agree. But the dogs still need to be trained.

    The statement that "perception is reality" is I think, a sign of an unscientific mind that is more controlled by emotion than reason. It shows a lack common sense and the ability to think rationally. Unfortunately, it's becoming more and more common.
     
  11. Jasper's Bloke

    Jasper's Bloke PetForums VIP

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    Science has nothing to do with it, this is a fact of life. Hundreds of years ago the greatest minds on the planet believed that the earth was flat and so the earth was flat. The scientific fact that it was of course not flat was neither here nor there, that was their perception of the world and therefore it was their reality. It does not matter what is true or not it only matters what people believe is true.

    What is becoming more common is the attitude that dogs are 'a thing' to be owned and possessed and therefore should be bent, with force if required, to our will. The dog must do this and must not do that for the simple reason that we say so. Yes of course there are basic rules that must be obeyed for the safety of both people and animals but this goes far beyond that. There is a vast difference between teaching a dog not to bite and teaching it to sit or roll over.

    I have said many times that I do not question the success, failure or effectiveness of shock collars (lets call them what they are shall we?) because for me the results are irrelevant as I believe (and therefore perceive, which subsequently becomes a fact) that the basic principles on which the method is based are unethical. I do try to remain objective and open minded but I am afraid that I refuse to be lectured on common sense by someone who cannot accept that they are wrong.
     
  12. Lou Castle

    Lou Castle Banned

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    I'll disagree and you may see why in a moment.

    The earth has never been flat. The fact that "the greatest minds on the planet believed" that it was did not change a thing except their behavior. But not everyone believed it. At least one man is given credit for NOT believing it enough so that he risked his life on the fact that it was not. Five centuries later we still remember the name Christopher Columbus, and he's largely credited with discovering "the new world" and shaping the future exploration of other lands by most all of Europe. (Never mind that others were there first and that others had been visiting fairly regularly).

    It was not everyone's reality. A few had the courage of their convictions to stand alone and then to try and convince others that they did not have all the answers. Starting to sound familiar?

    What people believe has no effect on reality. It may be their truth but that does not affect what is actually going on in the world. In your example, the earth did not care what people thought.

    For decades I worked in law enforcement and met up with people for whom perception was reality. They believed that they were safe no matter how recklessly they lived and no matter how safe they really were. They didn't lock the doors of their homes or cars. They walked from the shopping mall to their cars with their head in the clouds, thinking of how much money they'd spent or their next errand and not paying attention to their surroundings. Many of those people, came to be known as victims. Crooks, who made their living by breaking into their homes or assaulting people at the mall took advantage of the way that they went about their lives. Sometime the only loss was money but sometimes they paid with their lives. When they became victims their world came crashing down around them. Some of them became so fearful that they could no longer leave their homes.

    Then there were people who believed that they weren't safe no matter the actual crime rate or how many precautions they took against being victimized. They lived behind multiple layers of security, locked doors, high gates topped with razor ribbon, trained attack dogs, security guards, CC TV systems and the like. They were rarely victimized but they lived their lives in fear.

    Then there were people who accepted the fact that they lived in a large urban area and that there were nefarious people about. They paid attention to their surroundings kept their doors locked and lived reasonable lives. They too were rarely victimized but they lived very happy lives. When they were victimized, they shrugged their shoulders, silently cursed their attackers (sometimes not so silently) hardened the target and went on living those happy lives.

    The reality is that there are criminals about and they will prey first on the unprepared and unbelieving.


    This isn't anything new. Dogs at one period were thought to not have feelings of pain. They were dissected without sedation to explore what they looked like under their skin. But the fact is that dogs ARE possessions under the law pretty much everywhere. We have created a dangerous environment and then placed them into it. Training must be reliable enough to keep them safe.

    Yep that's how it goes. There's a reason that they're called Obedience COMMANDS. They're NOT called Obedience REQUESTS. We, as guardians of their safety know best. If given complete freedom they'd happily slurp up bowlfuls of highly poisonous engine coolant. And so we have an obligation to them.

    Perhaps, based on the highway death rate we should call cars, "Cages of death?"

    You believe that causing minor discomfort to a dog is "unethical?" If so then how do you feel about people who withhold a treat that's been offered? That causes some degree of discomfort. If it did not the dog would not sit. How about people who advocate not feeding a dog on the day he's going to meet with a trainer. That makes him more attentive, especially if treats are used but it causes him some degree of discomfort. I know of one trainer who teaches a recall with food. Her method involves not feeding the dog AT ALL until he responds to the treats she's using to lure him in. She freely admits that might take days. Obviously that causes, in some dogs, a great deal of discomfort.

    So this leads reasonably to the question, how much discomfort is it OK to impose on a dog? Many people pretend that there's no discomfort in their training at all but that's because they want to pretend that all their work is "kind" and "gentle." But those are relative terms and the fact is that everyone uses punishment and everyone uses aversives. It's impossible to train a dog without them. Changing the language does not change what's going on.

    Humor me please. Tell me as why you think that Ecollars are wrong. In that post please tell me your understanding of how they are used. I certainly do appreciate that you are able to remain polite and professional. So many are not.
     
  13. leashedForLife

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  14. Lou Castle

    Lou Castle Banned

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  15. leashedForLife

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    my wireless connection was acting strangely, i could not see the first post.
    i removed it as soon as i was aware of the duplicate.
     
  16. leashedForLife

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  17. Lou Castle

    Lou Castle Banned

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    Mr. Hassen is the PERFECT example of how NOT to use an Ecollar. Do a Google search with both our names and you'll find quite a few arguments I've had with him.
     
  18. Lou Castle

    Lou Castle Banned

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    I don't think so. What trainer would entitle an advertisement "e-collar training - poor dog?" I think it's an excellent example of what can happen when too−high a stim level is being used. But even so, where is the dog voiding his bladder and his bowels? How about the flipping over backwards that we keep hearing about?

    Here's some more good Ecollar work

    Youtube – Retrieving a Credit Card
     
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