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Discussion in 'Dog Training and Behaviour' started by leashedForLife, May 5, 2010.


  1. leashedForLife

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  2. jen24

    jen24 Banned

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    I like cesar millan, im guessing others dont!!!

    ok so some of his training methods may not be perfect but whose are?! i'll always like him, whatever anyone says.

    im expecting to be jumped on now!!!!
     
  3. fluffybunny2001

    fluffybunny2001 PetForums VIP

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    i joined!!!!it`s up to you if you like him,but watching him strangling a dog was enough for me!!!
     
  4. Nonnie

    Nonnie PetForums VIP

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    Can people please be very careful with what they say about individuals.

    It can create legal problems for the forum otherwise.
     
  5. jen24

    jen24 Banned

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    thank you :thumbup: :D:D x
     
  6. Daggre

    Daggre PetForums Member

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    I like him. Some of his methods may not be perfect. But he seems to get through to the dog, and has saved so many dogs from being put down, if you see how he reformed dogs it's amazing! None of his dogs seem to be unhappy either.

    So am i Jen!

    And i'm not saying we at home should try his methods. I think it takes a certain type of person to take that approach, and I don't think anybody without lots of experience should go around using some of his methods. But he has save dso many dogs from being put down.


    argh, messed up there ^^ that was my post
     
  7. Daggre

    Daggre PetForums Member

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    I like him. Some of his methods may not be perfect. But he seems to get through to the dog, and has saved so many dogs from being put down, if you see how he reformed dogs it's amazing! None of his dogs seem to be unhappy either.

    So am i Jen!

    And i'm not saying we at home should try his methods. I think it takes a certain type of person to take that approach, and I don't think anybody without lots of experience should go around using some of his methods. But he has save dso many dogs from being put down.


    argh, messed up there ^^ that was my post
     
  8. leashedForLife

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    hey, daggre! :--)
    heres a link with dog-pros explaining what they see as problems -
    Quotes From Experts :: The College of Veterinary Medicine at The Ohio State University

    when U say the dogs *don;t seem unhappy* - are U referring to the dogs shown being handled on-leash?
    --- terry
     
  9. Daggre

    Daggre PetForums Member

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    Hai :)
    No, his pack. When a visitor arrives, they all greet them calmly, tails wagging. And they interect normally together. I have read some of the information on that page, and i can see where your coming from, it is best not to intimidate the dog if possible, and gentler (by that i mean, the positive reinforcement) training methods should be tried first, but some people have tried many trainers and the dog is due to be put down. Cesar has saved those animals.

    As for the leash jerks,and hand snaps. They do not hurt the dog, they act as a distraction/block. I am not saying that putting a dog into the 'submissive' position is a correct approach. But not all of of his ideas are totally wrong.
     
  10. CarolineH

    CarolineH PetForums VIP

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    Nat Geo have a lot to answer for. There is a rising backlash against the type of behaviour modification shown in that programme with many professional people openly coming out in condemnation of the irresponsibility of promoting such methods on the TV.

    As for his 'successes, well we see only short-term successes from selective cases. ;) His tactics have been discredited by the people who originally developed them. For instance, he uses the so-called "alpha-roll" or to demonstrate dominance over a dog. This technique was first widely publicised much earlier by the Monks of New Skete (and he adopted it from them). Job Michael Evans, who first suggested the Alpha roll in his book for the Monks of New Skete, later apologised for it and so he should have! Evans indicated publicly that he wished he had never written about the alpha-roll and it has led to widespread abuse. According to Evans, the only dogs that would likely accept an Alpha roll didn't actually need it and the ones who do need it would bite you if you tried it with them, as many a copycat owner has found when mimicking CMs outdated and discredited methods on their poor dogs!

    There are so many far better, less confrontational ways of training and dealing with, dogs. Why are some people so keen to use force, becoming dog dominators? :confused: Dogs are conspecific, they do not perceive themselves to be part of 'our' pack! They do NOT see you as other dogs! The dog sees other dogs as dogs, not you! You are not part of his pack. He is part of your family, part of your household. Treat him fairly, learn about dog behaviour from the right sources. Not from someone who believes that a dog putting its own tail between its legs is 'making itself fearful' or who states that dogs are 'excited dominant' (boisterous actually) etc blah blah.
     
    #10 CarolineH, May 5, 2010
    Last edited: May 5, 2010
  11. Daggre

    Daggre PetForums Member

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    I am not keen to establish dominance by intimidation or the 'alpha roll' when i use the word 'dominant' i generally mean, the dog shows you no respect, however, it seems here this word is instantly attacked. I think of the word 'dominance' as you have to be in charge, not necesserily (sp?) forcefully, but the dog has to respect you, because otherwise a situation could potentially be dangerous (such as jumping) i do not believbe dogs should be alloeed to jump as many people dislike it, they could knock you over or ruin clothes (sounds trivial, but could be annoying on a regular basis). Dogs who get excited and jump with other dogs, are ignored until they calm down, which is what i do 9ignore a jumping dog until it is sitting calmly) I KNOW we are not dogs, but this doens't mean we shouldn't get the same level of respect.
     
  12. leashedForLife

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    its not about liking or disliking the man, jen -
    it very specifically has to do with what he does, and how he does it.

    he does not TRAIN, remember :p he says so all the time :rolleyes: he is *not a trainer.*
    rather he says he *rehabilitates* which should translate to B-Mod, but behavior-modification requires even more-education
    + more-savvy than the standard manners-only or even sport-only [agility, flyball, etc] trainer needs.
    EX:
    if i am a very-skilled specialist who is instructing savvy handlers whose dogs already have well-taught basic-obedience,
    then i can focus exclusively on my area of expertise -
    like teaching a swimmer-turn for flyball, or maintaining good moving-contacts in agility,
    or a full-mouth bite in Schutzhund, or teaching the dog to use whole-body-cues for freestyle vs hand-cues.

    B-Mod requires extreme-awareness of the dogs emotional state, to keep the dog calm-enuf to continue learning -
    a highly-stressed, aroused or fearful dog CANNOT learn new behavior, so minimizing stress is crucial.
    B-Mod also requires a broad + deep knowledge of various techniques + tools, many did not exist even 10-yrs ago -
    others have been around since the 1930s - including Pavlovian conditioning + Skinners OC - operant conditioning.

    obviously, someone who teaches a puppy to SIT on-cue is not tackling an adult-dog with sep-anx, on-leash reactivity,
    post-trauma fears, and other major issues - but i am sure U can see that the ability to teach a puppy SIT on cue
    is simpler than dealing with habitual behaviors that may have been practiced for years.
    hence the need for more-knowledge for those practicing B-Mod.

    cheers,
    --- terry
     
  13. ArwenLune

    ArwenLune PetForums Senior

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  14. CarolineH

    CarolineH PetForums VIP

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  15. mitch4

    mitch4 PetForums VIP

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    i think his methods are appauling :mad:
     
  16. leashedForLife

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    look at these videos or listen to a podcast here -
    ABRI Videos and Podcasts
    and there is simply no comparison between the quality of information and the handling styles (shown or described).
    *the Donaldson, teoti anderson, DVM yin, DVM dunbar...
    and theres more - all FREE, all competent, all safe sources.
    i compare it to buying prescription-drugs from an on-line website with no physical-address for cut-rate prices plus shipping, or getting the same meds from a safe-source thru a known-pharmacy with a druggist available by phone...
    but in this case - the price is free.
    U save the risks of serious fallout, major un-intended consequences, and U learn something along the way.
    so... why buy from any source less than known-safe + professional?

    DVM Yin has dozens of U-Tube videos; so does *kikopup*, *karen pryor and other KP-academy grads*,
    and hundreds, perhaps thousands, of pet-owners --- who all use pos-R training techniques successfully -
    PERFECTLY? no - but pos-R does not have to be perfect, it is not nearly as difficult to use safely and well
    as punitive techniques,
    which must be accurately timed, of sufficient aversity to STOP the behavior on one or 2 applications (pretty severe IOW),
    and Consistently Applied - every time the dog does X, U gotta *correct* AKA punish.

    lifes too short to spend punishing / correcting --- teaching right is faster, safer, simpler
    and CERTAINLY :lol: more fun! :thumbup: than correcting AKA punishing. ;) try it - betcha like it. :thumbsup:
    IMO + IME, U have absolutely nothing to lose :) and U and Ur dog have everything to gain.

    --- terry


     
  17. Nicky10

    Nicky10 PetForums VIP

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    Joined his methods are awful. Have you seen the saint bernard puppy who was scared of stairs video yet?
     
  18. leashedForLife

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    my WORD, :001_tt1: incredible link! Wow.

    just watch that clip of CM/DW forcing the Maltese to submit to grooming,
    YouTube - Safe or Unsafe Handling of an Aggressive Dog which is on that page of Yin-wisdom,
    and then watch THIS... YouTube - CIA Case File: 'Tucker' Nail Trim

    in one, we see a small dog who is alternately shut-down, stressed, or highly defensive -
    in the other, we see a dog with a LONG history of bites with bleeding, who is relaxed, engaged,
    open-faced + co-operative - he is NOT restrained in any way, he *offers* a paw for a claw to be clipped at the end.

    which would U rather work with as a groomer? or if U were the owner -
    what outcome is preferable? which dog is less problematic?

    obviously, Tucker is not *cured* - but he is not resistant, defensive or traumatized, etiher. ;)
    he has a way to go, but he is improving. i am not at all sure we can say that about the Maltese -
    how will he behave the next time someone approaches him with scissors?
    i kinda doubt he;ll be relaxed + calm, myself. :eek:

    cheers,
    --- terry
     
  19. Nicky10

    Nicky10 PetForums VIP

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  20. Thorne

    Thorne PetForums VIP

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    Joined in a heartbeat ;)
     
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