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Alpha Dog

Discussion in 'Dog Training and Behaviour' started by Corinthian, Apr 5, 2011.


  1. Corinthian

    Corinthian PetForums Member

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    Alpha Dog - Page 2
    a discussion about this site An Alpha Dog

    The level of stupidity found on this site is beyond belief and at every turn and in every action this woman sees a dog trying to dominate her. To me that always says more about the people and their problems than it says about the dogs.

    anyways people can waste their time by going to the site and reading this crap but I did find one rule on how to be a "pack leader" particularly amusing

    So why are people bring monsters into their homes that prevents them from feeling human emotions? Am I to live in constant fear for the next 15 years that I may feel something and provoke my dog into some coup d'etat?

    I theorize that STUPID is the second largest content producer on the net.
     
  2. Rottiefan

    Rottiefan PetForums VIP

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    :eek::eek:

    Have you read some of the other stuff on that site?!! It's unreal! The videos of that 'Alpha' GSD were very hard to watch, I don't know how I would have responded if I saw them in the street. :mad:
     
  3. lucysnewmum

    lucysnewmum PetForums Senior

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    Corinthian...
    we should not criticise those who arent here to defend themselves....

    every single dog trainer / behaviourist on this planet will give you a different view on how to remedy training or behaviour issues based on their understanding and knowledge.

    we may not agree with them....but we dont have the right to say they are wrong!
     
  4. Malmum

    Malmum PetForums VIP

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    Well I certainly agree with a dog feeling your emotions and believe that to be why Flynn plays up when he see's another dog.

    Haven't read the link but I know many on here have said a dog can feel your fear in certain situations and feels fear too, so will take a situation and react on it purely by what you're sending out. Many good dog trainers have said that also.
     
  5. Rottiefan

    Rottiefan PetForums VIP

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    That's true...to an extent. But there's no way that a calm individual is going to make a seriously reactive on-leash dog calm. It just doesn't happen. Of course, it helps if you can be calm in these situations, especially in training, but if you have a dog that is really reactive from the off, then I can bet it is not really to do with simply "The handler is nervous, thus the dog is nervous". The dog has a problem, more like it, and will act that way with anyone, but perhaps to varying degrees depending on who it is.
     
  6. keirk

    keirk PetForums Member

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    I couldnt agree more. :D
     
  7. RobD-BCactive

    RobD-BCactive PetForums VIP

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    That site is an homage to the DW/CM, created by a follower of his.

    There is actually some reasonably well presented and accessible info on it, that I wish was done similarly on a site, without the cultish info and spin.

    Of course we do! A forum is about sharing opinions, and a debate.

    Part of Cesar's technique is vagueness, so he avoids predictions to allow testing of his theory, but is "intuitive" and follows "hunches". When a method fails, he glosses over it, by immediately following a new hunch, if that works then it is hailed as miraculous.

    Look at the statement "This is what dog psychologist Cesar Millan (the Dog Whisperer) calls a red zone case, because the dog bit someone drawling blood. ", now that is NOT my understanding from watching the show of Cesar's Red Zone. A bite drawing blood is a factor, which suggests the category; but then what value has the concept "Red Zone" without regard to the actual causal factors?

    In recent shows I've watched, there's a correlation between corrections and displaced aggression. As predicted by those warning against "submitting the dogs". However the DW is taken by surprise and then reacts, afterwards providing a rationalisation which is presented unquestioningly and uncritically, for his actions. The believers, see a "difficult & dangerous" dog, whilst those who take trouble to educate themselves, actually see the DW's actions as being causal to the incident.

    What this "Alpha Dog" case shows, is actually the reason why National Geographic ought to replace the show, with a more science and evidence based one. You have a viewer applying the techniques seen in the show and read in Cesar's books, where a properly qualified Dog Behaviourist should have been referred to.
     
    #7 RobD-BCactive, Apr 6, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2011
  8. Rottiefan

    Rottiefan PetForums VIP

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    Just last night I saw a clip where he kept jabbing a French Bulldog who was a little socially inept upon meeting other dogs. Eventually, the bulldog would completely avoid this one dog (Cesar's Junior) and Cesar proclaimed that the avoidance was bad and he had to work to snap it out of the dog, but he was the one who caused it!:rolleyes:
     
  9. keirk

    keirk PetForums Member

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    Im a bit bored at work - so read the page and watched the movies.

    I would have recommended taking the dog to the vets in the first instance, the protests and clearly stressed body language dont point to a dog with "dominance" issues - more likely pain related.
     
  10. Rottiefan

    Rottiefan PetForums VIP

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    That's it. I don't believe in dog-human dominance at all, but I thought that case would be clearly fear related even to dominance, pack-leader advocates like that woman. Obviously not!
     
  11. RobD-BCactive

    RobD-BCactive PetForums VIP

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    There's one where Cesar is advising the owner, to correct a growl to disagree, and that very second he gets bitten as he's saying it!
     
  12. Rottiefan

    Rottiefan PetForums VIP

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    He's a miracle worker!:D:glare:
     
  13. Corinthian

    Corinthian PetForums Member

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    Not only do we have the right to say it's wrong. We have the OBLIGATION to do so. I would speak for you dog, if I saw it being treated like that and I'd would hope others would speak up as well. Remember that, all that is required for evil to triumph is for good people to stand by and do nothing

    You also make the mistake of assuming t that knowledge is 'personal', it is not. For the most part knowledge is objective and outside personal influences. The problem is that you and these people try to pass of their lousy opinion as facts when they are really tired oft repeated lies.
     
    #13 Corinthian, Apr 6, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2011
  14. newfiesmum

    newfiesmum Banned

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    I am confused. Since when has "harshness" been an emotion? And since when has Caesar Millan been a bloody dog psychologist! I have done the Canine Behaviour Centre dog psychology course; I have more right to that title than he does, but I don't feel qualified. He has no experience other than watching packs of wild dogs, and he didn't even do that very well.

    Sorry, this sort of thing makes me so mad. I haven't read it, wouldn't dream of it. As someone said, why the hell would anyone want a dog if they are going to spend their entire life watching for signs that he is going to take over? What a load of BS.

    Dogs may well be dominant toward each other, I am still undecided about that, but they are never, ever dominant toward the humans in their lives. I read recently that if a dog puts both paws on your knees that is a sign of dominance. WTF?

    When will this ridiculous idea of pack leader theory ever end? Perhaps if we could get the idiot DW off the telly, it might begin to die a slow death, but having trawled the internet I am horrified at how many so-called trainers and behaviourists are still talking this same old twaddle.

    The rules of pack leader theory don't even make sense, not to me at least. Don't let him on the sofa, or he will think he is the pack leader. Well, of course, in the wild dogs and wolves come across sofas all the time don't they, so that makes sense?:rolleyes::

    I shouldn't have read this thread, it has sent me off on one. My apologies.
     
  15. RobD-BCactive

    RobD-BCactive PetForums VIP

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    Yep, I was a whooping!! That dog had great timing!
     
  16. RobD-BCactive

    RobD-BCactive PetForums VIP

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    Awwww you have to laugh though!!

    I just shudder to think how Cesar would treat Freddie, "excited Dominant state of mind" I am sure, and as Collies and the DW don't get on too well from what I've seen, and Freddie generally stands up for himself; well I could imagine it getting ugly! He'd be bound to nip Cesar, if he used those skates for sure!
     
  17. newfiesmum

    newfiesmum Banned

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    If he tried to skate with my Ferdie he would be pulled on his rear end, because my Ferdie would simply sit down and refuse to move! Of course, Ferdie does sit next to me on the sofa and squash me up into the corner when I have a cup of tea. I know CM would say he is being dominant, but actually he is just after my tea. If they are on the sofa, as soon as I come in with my dinner, or point and say off, they get straight down, so I have no idea how anyone would think they are dominant. It is still my sofa.
     
  18. RobD-BCactive

    RobD-BCactive PetForums VIP

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    You don't think Ferdie the DW trainer, could teach Cesar to pull? Not even with one of those Kiddie wagons?
    Cesar ought be happy, he'd be out in front ;)
     
  19. Vampyria

    Vampyria PetForums VIP

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    I am by no means an expert on dogs, but have done some reading on this. Dogs (in a domestic environment) will fall in a loose hierarchy, but this usually only comes into play for things like toys/food. One dog may eat first, or get the toy first. There is usually no squabbling and the dogs seem to just do this naturally. Things like a dog putting a paw on you/allowing a dog on the sofa is "allowing it to become dominant" is utter tosh. :rolleyes: It doesn't make any sense! :p

    This whole silly "alpha" theory was started in the 1940's by Rudolph Schenkel, who put forward a theory about pack positions in wolves. However, this was severely flawed. The studies were of unrelated wolves who were forced to live unnaturally with each other in artificial, captive surroundings (a 1940’s zoo environment) for many years. From what I read, these wolves did try to assert dominance over others and formed quite a strict hierarchy - quite different from wolves in the wild.

    Wild packs of wolves are formed of the main breeding pair and their offspring from the previous years. The loose hierarchy of wild wolves are there to minimise conflict between pack/family members, not cause them (I believe dogs do the same?). If wild wolves/wild dog packs were constantly fighting each other to be "top dog" they would have wiped themselves out long ago :rolleyes:

    While I was reading all this, I found some disturbing information about the dreaded "alpha roll". Wolves do roll over onto their backs, but they do this willingly. I am not sure if this is true or not, but there have been few recorded of wild dogs/wolves forcing another on to its back (like some people do to their dogs). The only reason wild dogs do this is to kill the other dog. If this is indeed true, I shudder at the thought of what these people/trainers are unwittingly doing do their/other dog's mental state :eek:
     
    #19 Vampyria, Apr 6, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2011
  20. Rottiefan

    Rottiefan PetForums VIP

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    Well done, a nice explanation and this view is supported by evidence. Welcome to the ranks of the sane people- why can't people like CM go with the times and realise that this view has very strong evidence?!

    Domestic dogs do form loose hierarchies too. Males tend to have a stricter hierarchy than females, and also seem to stick with it, but when it comes of male-female dyads, females do have the ascendency a lot of the time. I think because females are the ones who can reproduce and, thus, have a natural advantage over males in general.

    "Dominance" is a term applied to a variety of animal social structures, but is still being questioned in these too, as well as in dog social structures. It is true that dogs do not go around thinking about controlling everything- it's much more complex than that. For traditional dominance hierarchies to form, a dog would need to guard everything and fight/perform aggressive displays with other members to maintain this. Yet, in dogs, there is a preformed hierarchy a lot of the time, and dogs just get on with each other because they naturally defer to the older dogs, in general.

    There's a lot of speculation on this issue. But what is increasingly likely is that the traditional view of 'dominance hierarchies' is not sufficient enough to account for dog-dog (and we are talking about large groups of dogs) social hierarchies. The Resource Holding Potential suggested by Bradshaw et al (2009) is a much better way of looking at things. It depends on the context, how desirable an object/space is to a particular dog etc., for a decision to who gets what resource to be taken.

    All interesting stuff.
     
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