Advice on breeding

Discussion in 'Dog Chat' started by Tracki, Apr 17, 2017.


  1. Tracki

    Tracki PetForums Newbie

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    My bitch (jug) is about to have her first litter of puppies (I am a first time breeder) and I was looking for some advice. I visited the vet today as i am concerned that she is really large.. she's looking fit to burst! I was advised not to have a scan or x-ray as they are not a reliable source to determine the size of litter, so don't know how many are in there. I know from palpation that it is not a singleton pup. The vet today examined her and said that she was 'open' and should have her pups within the next day or two. She is only day 58 and and I am worried that this may still be too early! Advice was to let her whelp naturally. Can anyone share experiences of a bitch going that early?
     
  2. labradrk

    labradrk PetForums VIP

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    What breed is the sire?
     
  3. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife PetForums VIP

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    wait a minute - :Wideyed U deliberately bred a cross-breed? o_O IIRC, "jug" = JRT x Pug.

    Any pups - even if sired by another so-called "jug" - will just be a random assortment of traits. Why did U bother?
    .

    Size, color / pattern, facial structure, coat texture, etc, will all be up to chance - the texture of a JRT's thin fine coat is quite different from the thicker hair & coarser coat of a Pug, just as one example among a score of options.
    .
    Breeding her - IMO - was irresponsible. // I'll let others offer advice. Good luck to the bitch - & please spay her ASAP, after.
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  4. Tracki

    Tracki PetForums Newbie

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    Yes I did deliberately breed a cross breed. I am not breeding her because I want a particular texture of coat. If you don't want to help to answer my query.. my question to you is why bother responding?
     
  5. Tracki

    Tracki PetForums Newbie

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    The sire is a pug
     
  6. Sweety

    Sweety PetForums VIP

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    The normal gestation period for a bitch is 63 days.

    However, if a bitch has a large litter, they can often deliver early and day 58/59 wouldn't be that unusual.

    There is absolutely nothing you can do about that, nature will take it's course.

    Do be aware that pugs often need help, even C Sections to deliver their pups. Do you have someone experienced who can be present during whelping?
     
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  7. winterrose

    winterrose PetForums Member

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    When my nan bred her first litter, puppies arrived 5 days early and although there was a stillborn pup, the other 7 puppies in the litter were absolutely fine and the bitch managed to deliver fine naturally.

    I hope you are aware that pugs and pug crosses can be hard for a bitch to deliver naturally and often need help delivering. Have you spoken to your vet about this?
     
  8. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife PetForums VIP

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    .
    yes, an average cost $1,200-usa emergency C-section can seriously dent the expected profit from a litter, :rolleyes:
    & brachy breeds are prone to whelping issues -- due to whopping great skulls on pups, & itty-bitty butts on dams - which means interiorly, itty-bitty pelvic openings.
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  9. Tracki

    Tracki PetForums Newbie

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    And who are you to go around telling people to spay their animal???
    Ok.. I know there are at least 3 pups but may well be more. Yes, I am aware of the issues with a pug whelping. My vet checked her prior to breeding and said she will whelp easier than a pug and shouldn't have any problems. I was hoping to have a planned cesarian but that was not her advice. Unfortunately I only have the breeder's knowlege to draw on via telephone so it is down to myself and my husband. Thanks for your help :)
     
  10. Tracki

    Tracki PetForums Newbie

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    Not doing this for profit.. or for a texture of coat?! :) I have spoken to the vet re whelping prior to breeding her and she had no concerns. I however would have chosen the c-section in a second if the vet thought it was the best option for her.
     
  11. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife PetForums VIP

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    QUOTE, Tracki:

    And who are you, to go around telling people to spay their animal???
    ...

    /QUOTE
    .
    .
    abbreviated bio:
    18-years plus on our family farm, keeping, breeding, rearing, feeding, & playing midwife to livestock - sheep, meat rabbits, chickens, geese, horses, & Siamese cats, as well as dogs.
    Delivered our own lambs for years, plus a few calves, whenever a neighbor's dairy cows were in distress.
    Also a trainer; I worked with other folks' pets of many species, mostly dogs -- but also cats, livestock, horses, herps, & exotic pets, since i was 18-YO; as i'm now past 50-YO, i've actually learnt a bit about dog health along the way. :)
    .
    I've also been deeply involved in wildlife rehab since i was 12-YO, treating injured & ill / orphaned wildlings & releasing them if they survived.
    .
    Plus, i'm a healthcare professional - I work as a private-duty Personal Care Aide in client's homes, with folks who are elderly, recovering from a crisis [hip surgery, broken arm, etc] or living with a chronic condition - dementia, cerebral palsy, mobility issues, fall risks, & so on --
    medical stuff is my daily meat & drink.
    .
    Every estrus Ur bitch goes thru increases her risk of mammary cancer -

    some factoids:
    * 50% of ALL mammary tumors are malignant; half are benign.
    * over 1 in 4 intact bitches develop malignant mammary tumors
    * nearly 7 of 10 F dogs diagnosed with mammary cancer are euthanized at the same vet-appt [to be precise, 68%].
    that's because mamm-tumors are aggressive; by the time symptoms appear, they've already metastasized to the lungs - making the cancer inoperable & untreatable.
    .
    That's "who i am, to TELL ppl to spay their animals" - & it was a friendly suggestion, for her sake - not some Big Brother prying into YOUR business, & ordering YOU about.
    It's the poor dog i'm thinking of - to have any purebreds whatever, the risk of estrus is unavoidable, but for crossbreeds & random-bred dogs, estrus is a completely avoidable risk. :)
    .
    Now, i've answered Ur question - politely, at length, & in detail.
    My Q is, who are you to be breeding a crossbred bitch? :) She's not an excellent example of her breed - as she hasn't one.
    .
    Has she been screened for heritable issues of
    both her breeds - JRT & Pug?
    see this sticky - Necessary health tests before breeding - for the AVAR list of heritable problems in purebred dogs
    Jack AKA Parson Russell Terrier:
    20, 78, 123, 186, 206, 235, 330

    Pug:
    9a, 10, 22, 50, 54, 57, 65, 67, 76, 80, 81, 85, 88, 90, 98, 98a, 103, 109, 116, 128, 143, 145, 149, 150,
    152, 166,
    173, 179, 181, 185, 195, 196, 230, 235, 246, 256, 259, 293, 295, 304a, 308, 309, 317

    in numerical order:
    9a. Addison's disease (hypoadrenocorticism):
    characterized by inadequate secretion of cortisone from the adrenal glands. (also see #159a.)

    10. Allergies:
    same as in humans. Dogs can be allergic to things they come in contact with, eat or inhale.

    20. Ataxia:
    incoordination associated with a variety of central and peripheral nervous system abnormalities, spinal cord instability or inner ear disorders.
    This condition is seen in many breeds and with episodes of spasmodic muscle activity in the JRT / Parson Russell Terrier.

    22. Atopy:
    an allergy caused by things dogs inhale.
    [EDIT: Causes skin issues, localized swelling, chronic inflammation, scratching, secondary infections, tertiary issues, etc.]

    50. Cervical disc disease:
    degeneration or malformation of the cushioning discs between the spinal column bones (vertebrae) in the neck.

    54. Cleft lip:

    the two halves of the upper lip do not join together. Cleft palate and cleft lip are often seen together.

    57. Collapsed trachea:

    the cartilage rings that make up the trachea are malformed and tend to collapse easily.

    65. Corneal dystrophy:
    abnormality of the cornea usually characterized by shallow pits in the surface.

    67. Corneal ulcer, superficial:

    an erosion of the outer membrane and outer surface of the cornea.

    76. Cystitis and cystic calculi:
    infection of the bladder which often leads to formation of abnormal mineral deposits (bladder stones).

    78. Deafness: an inability to hear, due to many different causes.


    80. Demodicosis:

    a skin disease (mange) caused by microscopic Demodex canis mites living within the skin layers and producing an immunodeficiency syndrome.
    [edit:
    re balding - Demodicosis or Demodex-mange in puphood can cause follicular scarring & a characteristic pattern of bald rings round the eyes, thinning on the forechest to either side near the upper arms, on the flank & groin, & behind the axillae/ armpits.]


    81. Dermatitis, atopic:
    inflammation and subsequent infection of the skin due to atopy. (also see #21, 22.)

    85. Diabetes mellitus:
    metabolic disease caused by insulin deficiency and characterized by the inability to utilize sugars normally.

    88. Distichiasis: abnormally growing eyelashes.

    90. Dystocia: complications of the birth process (difficult birth).


    98. Elongated soft palate:
    t
    he soft palate is abnormally long and causes breathing disorders.

    98a. Encephalitis:
    an inflammatory condition of the brain causing signs of central nervous system dysfunction & epilepsy (seizures). A unique form of encephalitis is
    prevalent in the Pug and is called "Pug Dog Encephalitis" (also see #109.)

    103. Entropion: an abnormal rolling in of the eyelid.


    109. Epilepsy: a disease characterized by convulsions (seizures) and/or disturbances of consciousness.

    116. Facial fold dermatitis:

    infection of the facial skin caused by unusual or excessive skin folds (seen in breeds such as the English Bulldog, Bullmastiff, Neopolitan Mastiff, Pekingese, Pug, or Chinese Shar-Pei).

    123. Factor X deficiency:
    a rare clotting disorder & an autosomal trait (affecting both sexes).

    128. Fold dermatitis:

    inflammation of skin folds especially in dogs with loose skin (e-g, French Bulldog, Pug, Shar-Pei).

    143. Hanging tongue:
    the tongue does not retract into the mouth properly, due to neurologic or anatomic defects. *Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, Pug, etc.

    145. Hemivertebra:

    a particular kind of malformation of the vertebra where only half of the structure is formed.

    149. Hepatic portosystemic shunt or arteriovenous fistula:

    a malformation of blood vessels in the liver or an abnormal communication between the arteries and veins in the liver.

    150. Hermaphroditism:

    a syndrome where the individual has anatomical features of both sexes.

    152. Hip dysplasia: a developmental malformation or subluxation of the hip joints.


    166. Hypothyroidism:
    an endocrine disease where the body produces an abnormally low amount of thyroid hormones. An autoimmune destruction of the
    thyroid gland, OR underproduction of thyroid hormone, OR self-destruction of circulating hormone once produced; affects over 50 dog breeds. (also see #192, 312.)


    173. Intervertebral disc disease:
    the discs between the vertebrae are abnormal, & prone to rupture and / or displacement.

    179. Keratitis sicca:
    one or both eyes do not produce a normal amount or type of tears. [Painful; can cause blindness.]

    181. Keratoconjunctivitis sicca: (See #179.)

    185. Legg-Perthes disease:

    disease in which the blood vessels feeding the femoral head (top part of the thigh bone) shrink, leading to starvation and death of the femoral head (the ball of the ball-and-socket joint of the hip). Also called Legg-Calve'-Perthes disease.

    186. Lens luxation:

    the lens in the eye is displaced into an abnormal position.

    195. Malocclusion: a condition where the teeth do not meet properly.

    196. Mastocytoma:
    a rare cancer developing from a type of tissue cell known as a mast cell.

    206. Myasthenia gravis:

    a syndrome characterized by muscle fatigue, due to an autoimmune disease which produces chemical abnormalities of the muscles & nerves. An enlarged esophagus called megaesophagus can result; food will be trapped in outpockets of the esophagus - regurgitation or inhalation of food can then lead to inhalation pneumonia or a fatal choking episode.

    230. Pannus:
    an immunologic eye disease characterized by abnormal growth of tissue over the cornea.

    235. Patella luxation:

    a condition where the knee caps slide in and out of place. [Painful, limits exercise tolerance & mobility.]

    246. Pigmentary keratitis:
    an inflammatory condition of the cornea characterized by abnormal pigmentation.

    256. Progressive retinal atrophy:

    a disease in which the retina slowly deteriorates, producing 1st, poor vision in diim light; then night blindness, & finally total blindness.

    259. Pseudohermaphrodism (pseudohermaphroditism):

    the animal has the gonads of one sex, but the appearance is ambiguous or is of the opposite sex.

    293. Spondylosis: a malformation of the vertebrae.

    295. Stenotic nares:

    the openings of the nose (nares) are too small - vertical slots, not open circles. This is the external manifestation of severe narrowing inside the sinuses, deep in the skull, which limits the dog's airway, makes them exercise intolerant, causes heat stress or heat stroke, & makes any stressful event - whether exciting or frightening - a risky undertaking.

    304a. Syncope: a brief period of fainting or collapse. (also see #206a.)

    308. Tail fold dermatitis:

    a skin infection caused by abnormal tissue folds around the tail.

    309. Teeth abnormalities: any number of problems of the teeth.


    317. Ulcerative keratitis:
    inflammation of the cornea, characterized by the formation of ulcers.

    330. von Willebrand's disease:
    a bleeding disorder caused by defective blood platelet function (an autosomal trait which affects both sexes).
    ============

    Of course, the SIRE should have had all relevant tests as well, before they were mated - especially as Pugs carry far-more deleterious traits than do JRTs, & U are essentially doubling-up on the risk of any one Pug heritable flaw by back-crossing to that breed. But U knew that - right? :)

    Does the bitch have a current annual eye-certificate from a k9 opthalmologist, certifying she's free of heritable eye problems?
    Breeding dogs are to be seen every 12-mos for a new exam & new certificate. // Did the sire have one?
    Was it less than 12-mos old?

    Have both been radiographed for hips, knees, & elbows? - what about a sliding-drawer test for patellar luxation?
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    .
    .
     
  12. SpicyBulldog

    SpicyBulldog PetForums Senior

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    :Wideyed:Wideyed:Wideyed $1,200! My vet charged less than $340 USD. I think this is something the OP needs to price and plan for ahead of time.

    It does not matter if the vet said all is fine, that is to their knowledge. Breeds that don't normally need c-section could need one, a bitch who whelped fine previously could need a c-section. It isn't something you can always predict.


    Then why exactly are you "doing this"?
     
  13. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife PetForums VIP

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    QUOTE, SpicyBulldog:

    :Wideyed:Wideyed:Wideyed $1,200! My vet charged less than $340 USD. I think this is something the OP needs to price and plan for ahead of time.

    It does not matter if the vet said all is fine, that is "to their knowledge" [EDIT: at this moment].
    Breeds that don't normally need c-section could need one, a bitch who whelped fine previously could need a c-section. It isn't something you can always predict.

    /QUOTE
    .
    .
    Genuine Q:
    was $340-usa a co-payment on the bill, & the remainder was paid by a vet insurance policy? // if so, what was the pre-insurance cost?
    What percentage was covered by the policy, & what part was out of pocket?
    Q #2 -
    How much did that particular bitch weigh? -- dosage, etc, is a direct reflection of body-weight, & everything from the volume of gas used in GA to the injection of an induction sedative before they are intubated, goes up in cost with a larger dog.
    .
    .
    here's a large sample of E C-section costs from breeders on a retriever forum - note that some got breeder discounts [10 to 25%, depending] & one, the OP, got slammed by an out-of-hours operator with a $3K bill - payable before they began any prep on the dog, thanks very much. :Jawdrop
    On average, $500 for a scheduled C-section in rural areas with a breeder discount; between $800 to $1500 in urban areas, & over that for any out-of-hours urgent case - so $1200 to 2-grand for emergencies, which puts my $1,200-usa on the low end.
    .
    http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?46654-Average-cost-of-a-C-section
    .

    10-20-2009, 08:16 PM #8
    user: cakaiser

    [​IMG]Senior Member[​IMG]
    Join Date - Jul 2007
    Location- N Al.
    Posts - 1,804

    "... My regular vet charges about $800, but it's been a couple of years. ..."
    ____________________

    10-20-2009, 08:14 PM

    [​IMG]Senior Member[​IMG]
    Join Date - Aug 2007
    Location- The coldest part of Alaska
    #7
    Juli H
    "... All the c-section costs I've heard of have always been in the $1200 -1700 range. ..."
    ____________________________________

    10-20-2009, 08:11 PM
    #6
    Sharon Potter
    [​IMG]Senior Member[​IMG]
    Join Date - Feb 2004

    Location
    - Wisconsin Rapids, WI
    "The last one I had was $500.
    And then there was this one. Of course, it was Friday night... & since the emergency clinic opened an hour away, no local vets do any emergency work. So... off we go. Keep in mind, this emergency clinic is simply a regular vet clinic that's open during off hours. No specialists, no out of the ordinary equipment. And they expect payment when you walk in the door, up front, before they do anything.

    Simple C-section, cost was $3000.[​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] And when my jaw dropped and I said What?? the vet said, well, your other option is euthansia."
    ___________________________________

    10-20-2009, 08:07 PM
    #4
    ErinsEdge
    [​IMG]Senior Member[​IMG]
    Join Date -
    Feb 2003
    Location
    - SE Wisconsin
    "I just had one the other day - under $1K with a breeder discount.
    One puppy (we knew) but he missed the exit ramp & was completely stuck between & in the two uterine horns. There's got to be a name in that - I guess it's pretty unusual, to be that stuck.
    At Kathy's vet in Iowa, it's under $400. At ERs it can be higher."
    _____________________________________


    10-20-2009, 08:01 PM
    #3
    North Mountain
    [​IMG]Senior Member[​IMG]
    Join Date -
    Oct 2003
    Location -
    Idaho
    "We just paid $850 in June - [C-section plus] spay, at my regular vet. She was 6-YO, & this was to be her last litter."
    _______________________________________________

    10-20-2009, 07:58 PM
    #2
    Vicky Trainor
    [​IMG]Administrator[​IMG]
    Join Date - May 2003
    Location - Eastern Shore of Maryland http://www.oakdaleretrievers.com


    "Just had our first c-section this past Mother's Day.... ~$1,400. We lost the one pup that was stuck in the birth canal.
    A friend's Irish Wolfhound had a c-section last year. Her total was ~$1,700, & they lost 7 of 12 pups. Same emergency hospital."

    _____________________________________

    10-20-2009, 07:51 PM
    #1
    Sharon Potter
    [​IMG]Senior Member[​IMG]
    Join Date - Feb 2004
    Location - Wisconsin Rapids, WI

    Average cost of a C-section
    "After the Whelping Weekend From Hell, I'm curious... what have others paid for a C-section?
    The good news is, mom & nine pups are now doing fine. And also, I like ramen noodles - which is a good thing."
    ___________________________________________
    _____________________________________________

    .
    .
    more on C-section costs -
    When a C-section is necessary, Whelping Puppies
    www.dogbreedinfo.com/whelpingcsection.htm
    Studies show that 20 to 30% of all puppies born die before 6 months of age; most because of neonatal death. ... Timing a C-section is EXTREMELY important for puppy survival. .... A C-section will cost you between $500 and $2,000. ... C-Section Due to Large Dead Puppy · Emergency Cesarean Section Saves Pups Lives ...
    .
    Information on Cesarean Sections for Dogs - Knoji
    https://dogs.knoji.com/information-on-caesarian-sections-for-dogs/
    Apr 19, 2012 -
    What's the cost of a cesarean section for a dog? My dog is having ... Why do some dogs need a caesarian section? How much ...
    Within the United States and Canada, costs for a canine C-section tend to be $500, to $1,800.
    .
    .
    .

    Tracki said:
    Not doing this for profit.. or for a texture of coat?! :)

    QUOTE, SpicyBulldog:

    Then why exactly are you "doing this"?

    /QUOTE
    .
    .
    Good Q - what's the point of this mating? If it's not money, then what?
    What, exactly, is spozed to be so wonderful about the progeny of this particular crossbred bitch, & this particular purebred stud? // They're not going to be hunters, working k9s for contraband detection etc, SDs, military or police k9s, etc - what purpose will these pups serve? What's the goal, & why do U need crossbred pups back-crossed to a breed with multiple congenital / heritable issues to get the desired MIXED BAG of traits? :confused:
    They won't be competitors in dog-sports such as flyball, HTM / freestyle, disk-dog, & so on.
    .
    She's not registered; none of her pups can be registered, unless by a for-profit vanity registry that will also register "wolf hybrids", "new breeds", & F1 generation crosses of novelties with no fixed traits - which, come to think of it, is precisely how Ur anticipated litter could be politely described. :D
    .
    .
    .
     
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  14. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife PetForums VIP

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    oops - Sorry, i missed 2 key tidbits on my bio:
    - 5 years of undergraduate college as a Pre-Vet major, carrying a dual [Ag Education & Animal Science] at Penn State;
    134 total credits, 3.2 all-courses GPA, & higher in my core curriculum
    - certified Vet's Assistant
    .
    .
    .
     
  15. Jamesgoeswalkies

    Jamesgoeswalkies PetForums VIP

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    If your bitch does whelp naturally then an early litter ...especially with pups of the smaller variety ...can mean that some will need a little extra help. My personal recommendation is warm towels to bring round any very tiny ones (and someone to massage) and some form of heat pad/incubator (separate box) to keep tiny ones warm whilst mum is busy whelping. You may need to help tiny ones latch to drink. Do this immediately. Persevere. Have back up feeding items handy, however. Hope it goes well. Be prepared for a long night!

    I would also add that Vets quite rightly do encourage natural births where possible and I hope this goes well for you however if in doubt do call the Vet at any point especially if the whelping goes on too long.

    J
     
  16. SpicyBulldog

    SpicyBulldog PetForums Senior

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    I did not say I don't believe it could cost that much, I am sure my friends vet would be an easy $1,000. I think it is something the OP needs to price so they can be prepared if it is needed.
    I do not have vet insurance nor pet insurance. Was not aware a c-section would be covered either, I know some of the coverage is limited. I did not receive any discount, sounds nice though.
    The entire amount was out of pocket.
    She is around 35lbs, I'm pretty certain my dogs are bigger than a "jug" (yuck). The charge states 40# for the anesthesia cost ($30), there was also a $50 after hours fee. A family friends chihuahua was nearly $500. I was quoted $400 by my previous vet. I've a friend about 20 mins away who's local vet charged over $500, but spay was included. Cost vary widely by location, individual vet and as you said size of dog. It is something the OP needs to speak to their vet about, regardless of if the vet states the dog should be fine.

    The OP isn't obligated to tell of why they did the breeding but they are very quick to say the reasons they have not done the breeding. I'm not against working and purpose bred crosses, but this has seemed like a pointless breeding thus far. I don't really see added benefit.
     
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  17. Sled dog hotel

    Sled dog hotel PetForums VIP

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    Period of gestation is normally around 62/63 days, however like humans dogs don't always follow perfect text book and it is possible to whelp earlier. If the vet said that she is open then I assume that they mean her cervix is dilated? Normally when the cervix dilates and opens that happens in the first stages of whelping so if that's the case
    then it doesn't sound like its likely far off.

    No disrespects to your vet, but I don't see how they can make a blanket statement and say they have no concerns about her whelping naturally or she will be OK because she isn't a full pug, unless he or she has some clairvoyance powers they haven't disclosed. He should at least have told you things to watch out for that can mean that whelping isn't progressing as it should. Pugs and pug crosses are known for having more natural whelping issues then other breeds, and even breeds who don't generally tend to have to many whelping problems still can. Dystocia can be a common whelping problem and can have many causes. The size and shape of the pelvic canal can be an issue if its too small or narrow, the size of the pups or a pup can cause issues, you can get a pup that is too big to pass, or a pup that becomes positioned incorrectly like sideways or bum first that can mean they cant pass, you can also get a condition called uterine inertia where the uterus doesn't start to contract, which can happen any time in labour sometimes it doesn't start to contract and push the pups out at all.

    The links below should help, I would read up particularly from item 9 onwards and familiarise your self with what should happen, it also tells you things that you should be concerned about.

    http://www.akc.org/dog-breeders/responsible-breeding/

    This is also another good check list 7 most common whelping and post whelping problems and when you need to contact the vet.
    https://www.medicanimal.com/Canine-...problems-during-and-post-whelping/a/ART111510

    Its vital that you know the signs and what signs could be indicating there is a possible problem, because if one should arise, and you don't do anything in time then it can result in loss of pups and even Mum too.
     
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  18. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife PetForums VIP

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    .
    .
    thanks for that, @SpicyBulldog -
    around here, average $800-usa would be a medium-sized dog [40 to 50#] with a previously-scheduled C-section, & no dog - not even a 5# toy-sized bitch - would get away with under $1,000-usa, for an out-of-hours C-section. Costs between practices only vary a couple of hundred plus or minus, as far as i've heard.
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  19. danielled

    danielled PetForums VIP

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    I don't suppose you had hip scores, elbow scores etc done? When was she bred. If she isn't too far in then I reccomend a mismate jab fast.
     
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  20. Sweety

    Sweety PetForums VIP

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    This particular bitch is at her due date, so a Mismate injection isn't appropriate.
     
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