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Raw Feeding: everything you need to know!

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#1 · (Edited)
update 25/11/2010 - unfortunately, despite the explanation below and the fact that it has been live for almost 5 months, this week I have been told that it is unclear as to the intention of this thread from the title.

Therefore to avoid any confusion, this thread is intended as a resource for those who want to feed a raw diet - simple as that. It has a lot of information collated into one place to make it less confusing to newbies and also discussion on feeding a raw diet including problems encountered and resolutions to these. Those who are making up their minds are welcome also.

I ask everyone to please keep on topic, as we are now on almost 600 posts and those people who are using this as a resource, as per the original intention, are now finding it difficult to wade through the off topic posts and find the information they need. Their questions are also getting lost and going unanswered because of this.

I hope that is clear - happy feeding!

------------------

I have found myself answering lots of threads on raw feeding lately, so thought I would put together some of the basics for people - hope its useful :)
If anyone else would like to add more, please do...also if you have any specific questions not answered here, please post and one of us will answer! :)

I have posted a series of posts here, so scroll down to see:
- 'The Basics'
- 'Switching to a raw diet'
- 'Pros and cons of feeding raw' Updated Links
- 'Where to buy supplies' & 'Further info' & 'Precautions' Updated Links
- 'Sample 2 week meal plan' to give you some ideas
- 'Pictures & preparation tips' Lots of pictures of the kinds of things you will be feeding and info on preparing meals (Incl. Sleeping Lion's thread)
- 'What about cats?' please see hobbs2004 great thread for feeding cats a raw diet: http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-health-nutrition/111455-thinking-feeding-raw.html

- By request 'Feeding puppies' section coming soon!

Ok so the basics are as follows:

Model: I feed a raw diet originally based on Tom Lonsdale's 'Raw Meaty Bones (RMB)' or prey model style feeding (see resources below for links to websites and books). This means that you feed as close as possible to a wild diet or whole raw prey (but most make this up with parts of the animals).

Some feed veggies, some feed fruit, some feed table scraps...in moderation, most fruit and veg will not harm your dog - but they are not a NECESSARY part of the diet, and there is currently no known nutritional requirement for them, as everything can be found within the raw meat/bones/offal etc components.

If you DO choose to feed veggies and fruit, please be aware that some of these items fed in excess can be harmful. For those who would like to feed veggies as well, see sleeping lions post quoted below with some great piccies of the food and nutritional breakdowns, further down in this series.

How much: You need to feed approx 2-3% of their expected adult body weight (if still growing) per day, or of their ideal adult body weight (if they have stopped growing) per day.

2% would perhaps be for a dog with low exercise or overweight. 3%+ would be for a dog with high exercise daily, perhaps sports dogs and also puppies. Somewhere around 2.5% suits most average adult dogs. Large breeds have slower metabolisms so they tend to need the lower % and small breeds have a high metabolism so often need far more than 3% even.

What? Remember the roughly 80:10:10 ratio - which is approx 70-80% muscle meat (incl. heart, tripe and oily fish), 10-20% bone (within some of that meat), 10% offal (this should be ½ liver and half other offal such as kidney, spleen etc). However, this is a very rough guideline and should be tweaked to suit the dog - for instance many feed more like 15-20% bone and as little as 5% offal. Either way it usually equates to somewhere in the region of 50-70% of the diet as lumps of meat with bone in...the remainder of the diet being made up of boneless chunks of muscle meat, incl heart/tripe etc, plus a small amount of offal like liver & kidney. On top of this, many feed a couple of eggs a week (whole and raw).
(see next post below about switching to raw)

NOTE: None of this has to be religiously stuck to on a daily basis - as long as over a period of weeks this adds up to roughly the correct amounts - and each dog is different, so some may need slightly lower bone, some might not be able to tolerate that much offal etc etc, hence the variable % stated above too.
Additional info: if you would like to feed veggies/fruit also in 'Pictures & Preparation Tips' post below.

Some ideas for meals: could be a chunk of meat of beef, lamb, pork, chicken, rabbit, turkey, venison, oily fish such as salmon, mackeral, herring, sardines, a bone-in meal of rabbit/chicken quarter or pork/lamb ribs etc...heart from any of the above animals, beef/venison tripe...the list is endless!

Size of pieces: The size of the pieces should always be appropriate to the size of the dog and the bigger the better! For instance, I would not personally recommend feeding something like a chicken wing to anything larger than a small breed, as this could easily be 'inhaled' and swallowed whole...instead a chicken breast and wing quarter or even a half chicken is much better for medium + breeds.

Type of bones: You should preferably avoid any weight-bearing bones of the large ungulates (i.e. avoid leg bones of cows etc) as they are so dense that they can chip the enamel of a dogs teeth. My rule of thumb is that if I can stick a knife in the bone, then it is soft enough to feed (think pork/lamb rib bones, chicken/duck/rabbit bones etc)...

When? Feed whenever it is suitable to you - obviously with a puppy they would need a number of feeds per day, but by the time they are 6 months you would normally move them onto 2 meals a day and then once they have stopped growing many raw feeders put them onto 1 meal a day, often in the evening as it is most convenient. However, I personally feed twice a day still as this works for me and Maggie & the cats.

RESOURCES:
Ok so for a good overview of this, take a look at Tom Lonsdale's site and books (PM me if you would like a copy): Raw Meaty Bones and the UK RMB Lobby: United Kingdom Raw Meaty Bones Support & Action Group

Some good info explaining the basics and answering common questions:
Difference between prey model & BARF
Answers to common questions

Worried about things like bacteria, frightened your dog might choke on a bone? - take a look at these common raw feeding myths and worries here for some answers to your fears: The Many Myths of Raw Feeding

Useful article here also: Removing the Fears Associated with Raw Feeding

Want some support from a massive worldwide group of like-minded people? Join the Yahoo lists below:
RawMeatyBones : RawMeatyBones
rawfeeding : Raw Feeding for dogs and cats!
RawPup : Rawfed Pups
Raw K9s (you can even ask to be assigned a mentor for this one who will help you through raw feeding every step of the way :) )

Also see the post a few below with 'Links to further information'.
 
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#1,054 ·
Heres my current 2 week meal plan;

Everyday has also on average 150g Offal

AM Turkey Drumstick 700g
PM Pork Loin 700g
AM Pork Ribs 700g
PM Ox Heart 300g, Sardines 400g
AM Turkey Leg 950g
PM Ox Heart 450g
AM Pork Ribs 600g
PM Pork Shoulder (always boneless) 900g
AM Chicken Carcus 900g
PM Sardines 500g
AM Turkey Back 600g
PM Ox Heart 700g
AM Turkey Leg 950g
PM Pork Shoulder 400g

AM Pork Belly Ribs 950g
PM Sardines 500g
AM Turkey Neck/ Head 450g
PM Ox Heart 800g
AM Ox Tail 700g
PM Pork Shoulder 700g
AM Chicken Carcus 750g
PM Ox Tongue 700g
AM Chicken Wings 550g
PM Ox Heart 800g
AM Ox Tail 700g
PM Pork Shoulder 700g
AM Pork Belly Ribs 750g
PM Sardines 650g
AM 1/2 Whole Chicken 750g
PM Ox Tongue 700g

He has been on similar to this last few weeks and his poo's seem to change daily from being a quite soft to quite chalky?
They also change colour or have quite a mixture of colours, and a lot of black? Is this normal??

Any comments on this menu plan are welcome!! Im still trying to get to grips with it!
 
#1,056 ·
He has been on similar to this last few weeks and his poo's seem to change daily from being a quite soft to quite chalky?
They also change colour or have quite a mixture of colours, and a lot of black? Is this normal??

Any comments on this menu plan are welcome!! Im still trying to get to grips with it!
Poppy's poos are a mixture of colours too. Darker when she has offal - can be almost black, lighter when she has chicken - can be quite yellowy, sometimes we have multicolour poos :D. I'm still trying to work out what the quite bright green one was recently :confused:.

Change in texture is probably just down to the actual amount of bone given on any particular day.

Not sure how long you've been feeding raw but the menu has a nice mixture.

I had some piggy parts on order for today from a free range pig farm but the lady didn't turn up at the market. Hopefully she'll get in touch soon as I've got some tongue, trotter, ear, tail, ribs and meat scraps to come. I do use some DAF minces to give variety that I couldn't get otherwise, e.g. rabbit, venison, duck, tripe and tripe mixes, plus they've recently added pheasant.
 
#1,057 ·
Poppy's poos are a mixture of colours too. Darker when she has offal - can be almost black, lighter when she has chicken - can be quite yellowy, sometimes we have multicolour poos :D. I'm still trying to work out what the quite bright green one was recently :confused:.

Change in texture is probably just down to the actual amount of bone given on any particular day.

Not sure how long you've been feeding raw but the menu has a nice mixture.

I had some piggy parts on order for today from a free range pig farm but the lady didn't turn up at the market. Hopefully she'll get in touch soon as I've got some tongue, trotter, ear, tail, ribs and meat scraps to come. I do use some DAF minces to give variety that I couldn't get otherwise, e.g. rabbit, venison, duck, tripe and tripe mixes, plus they've recently added pheasant.
Hes been on the Raw diet for about 6 weeks before I started this current menu... Hes been acustomed to all the different meats already and no diaherea etc...

Is it not better to give whole meats rather than minces..for their teeth and breath etc?
I dont give Elvis mince tho just because he eats 600g of it in a matter of seconds!

I give him a lot of his meals frozen or partially frozen to lengthen the time it takes him to eat it...he can eat 1/2 a whole chickenn(800g) in 5 mins! :eek:
 
#1,058 ·
Is it not better to give whole meats rather than minces..for their teeth and breath etc?
I dont give Elvis mince tho just because he eats 600g of it in a matter of seconds!
I don't give 100% minces, no more than 50% is mince. I live in a fairly rural area with only a Co-op supermarket and one not particularly cheap butcher - a lamb breast, 500g, recently cost me £2.99 and they only do salt marsh lamb at the moment. There's no opportunity for any discounted meat here like, say, Morrisons do. So the only way I can get a good variety is to include some minces.

Her breath is absolutely fine and her teeth are kept wonderfully clean from the bones that are part of her "menu" and she also has stag bars. She has lamb breast, lamb ribs, chicken wings, chicken necks, turkey chunks, chicken chunks, tripe chunks, tinned fish, fresh fish, heart, liver, kidney. I am adding the piggy parts when I can get them from the farm.

She's been fed raw for over a year now, never had smelly breath and never has wind, her poops are exactly how a raw fed dog's should be - small, firm and virtually no smell.

She is only 5kg so only has roughly between 150g and 160g daily. I can get between 5 and 6 meals from one 1lb pack so an average meal would be around 15p. I've lost my local DAF supplier so will now have to use another of their distributors (DAF themselves don't deliver to where I live) and pay the carriage charge which will knock the price up to approx 20p per meal but still very reasonable I think for the variety that she will get.

So for us adding in a certain amount of minces works well for my pocket and the variety which I couldn't otherwise get and I don't believe there's any downside to not feeding her just on whole meats.
 
#1,059 ·
I don't give 100% minces, no more than 50% is mince. I live in a fairly rural area with only a Co-op supermarket and one not particularly cheap butcher - a lamb breast, 500g, recently cost me £2.99 and they only do salt marsh lamb at the moment. There's no opportunity for any discounted meat here like, say, Morrisons do. So the only way I can get a good variety is to include some minces.

Her breath is absolutely fine and her teeth are kept wonderfully clean from the bones that are part of her "menu" and she also has stag bars. She has lamb breast, lamb ribs, chicken wings, chicken necks, turkey chunks, chicMken chunks, tripe chunks, tinned fish, fresh fish, heart, liver, kidney. I am adding the piggy parts when I can get them from the farm.

She's been fed raw for over a year now, never had smelly breath and never
has wind, her poops are exactly how a raw fed dog's should be - small, firm and virtually no smell.

She is only 5kg so only has roughly between 150g and 160g daily. I can get between 5 and 6 meals from one 1lb pack so an average meal would be around 15p. I've lost my local DAF supplier so will now have to use another of their distributors (DAF themselves don't deliver to where I live) and pay the carriage charge which will knock the price up to approx 20p per meal but still very reasonable I think for the variety that she will get.

So for us adding in a certain amount of minces works well for my pocket and the variety which I couldn't otherwise get and I don't believe there's any downside to not feeding her just on whole meats.
I wasn't being critical!
I was just wondering from reading something Here...
I just don't feed him minces coz he seriously eats 700g in seconds, unless I frooze it..
Feeding 1.5 kg per day can be v expensive if it's not planned! Thankfully I get free meaty chicken carcasses and free turkey wings and necks etc..
 
#1,060 ·
I wasn't being critical!I was just wondering from reading something Here...
I just don't feed him minces coz he seriously eats 700g in seconds, unless I frooze it..
Feeding 1.5 kg per day can be v expensive if it's not planned! Thankfully I get free meaty chicken carcasses and free turkey wings and necks etc..
I didn't think you were :). I hope my reply didn't imply that was how I took it :eek:. I was just answering your query of whether it was better to give whole meats rather than minces and why I do it my way, plus the fact that teeth, breath, etc., are fine when feeding her that way. If I had a better access to a supply of a variety of meats I might not feed minces myself. Once I get the piggy parts properly organised and hopefully on a regular basis then I think the proportion of meat:mince should increase, although they do supply a lot of their not-for-humans pork to some fox hounds locally so I'll have to make sure she saves some for me. I can't afford to keep getting lamb breast at £6 a kilo but don't mind buying it occasionally for an extra special treat.

My son killed a sheep the other day (accidentally, the car in front of him made 3 sheep scatter from the road, unfortunately one ended up in front of his car :( ), my first question to him was not "Are you OK" but "Did you bring it home for Poppy" :D. That's probably how most raw feeders start to think after a while ;).

There's many of us raw feeders on here, some feed minces, some don't, some feed prey, some feed BARF, some don't see the point of including veg and some include it regularly. There probably isn't a way that suits everyone for whatever reason. As long as there's variety and balance and the dog does well on it then whichever method is used it's going to be a great diet for our dogs.

I do envy you your freebie supply of carcasses, wings, necks, etc.
 
#1,061 ·
Hi everyone. I have a 6.5-month old Japanese Spitz puppy that I've really wanted to move onto raw. Mainly because he hates kibble and it makes the most sense to me. Reni is our first dog that's officially 'mine' and I just love him to bits. We still have some kibble (Taste of the Wild + some Orijen/Acana samples) left that we just can't afford to throw away so I've been doing one meal kibble and one meal raw for about two to three weeks now. I started off with chicken, but he's also tried rabbit and turkey, and some beef mince and ox heart. I've also tried giving him a bit of kidney this week. He's been absolutely fine until now...

The thing is, he absolutely loved raw at first, which made me happy because he had become completely uninterested in kibble and I had to feed him by hand or else he wouldn't eat any. My main motivation for trying raw was seeing him so unhappy with his food. He just loved chicken and munched away happily, necks were his favourite.

This week, he had constipation and was in pain when passing the pooh, which was my fault because I gave him chicken carcass two days in a row (he ate half each time). I haven't given him bone since, but he hasn't been eating properly. This actually started last week so I don't think this incident has to do with it. He has progressively lost interest in his food, which previously happened with any type of food and kibble that I tried. He hasn't eaten kibble in two days, and as for raw, well... On Friday, he had some chicken meat and ate a bit every few hours, he ate the last bit just before midnight. Yesterday, I gave him some turkey meat and a piece of kidney. He ate the kidney but left the turkey. I finally cut it up into pieces and fed them to him, he ate some but then refused any more. He did have some treats (fruit, cheese, a bit of cooked turkey) which he loved, but he wouldn't touch the raw turkey. Finally, I gave him some tuna and he ate most of that. Today, he didn't want any kibble again so he skipped the morning meal. And then earlier, I gave him some beef mince and a piece of ox heart, thinking surely he'll eat that. He loved the heart but wouldn't touch the mince. I mixed some raw egg into it but it didn't make it any more interesting. He's literally had 50g ox heart today when he usually eats about 250g per day. And I know he hasn't lost his appetite, he just doesn't want the mince.

On top of this, he hasn't poohed since yesterday morning. I just had a good cry because I'm getting a bit desperate now. I'm still a bit haunted by what happened on Wednesday when he couldn't pass the pooh and I thought it was happening all over again, but he shouldn't be constipated again because he hasn't had bone since then! I just really, really don't know what to do anymore.

I've just had a big argument with my grandma who can't understand why I'm obsessing about the dog's food so much. If it were up to my family, he'd be happily eating Pedigree kibble and cheap pasta with a bit of meat all his life, like our previous dog who was obese, had horrible teeth, arthritis, constant health problems, and died at age 9 of liver failure! I suppose my family think that's normal for a dog! I suppose I should mention I live in Slovenia where I don't think many people feed their dogs prey model or BARF, at least not as far as I've seen on forums etc. And I don't think I'd attempt going to a butcher's and asking for bones for the dog. My family obviously think I'm insane, poisoning him, spending too much on him etc., but were willing to go along with my little project.

I started looking where I could possibly find green tripe but I just don't know where to start. I did find a BARF supplier in Germany that was willing to ship frozen tripe here, but he suggested I order 27 kg. I mentioned this to my mum yesterday and told her of all the benefits for the dog. She didn't say no, but she didn't really say yes either, except that 27 kg is a lot and that I would be feeding it in my room because of the smell. And today I got quite an earful from my grandmother about this, about what I'm doing to this dog, how all dogs eat Pedigree and don't die from it, and that no one else orders food for their dog from Germany. I didn't feel like arguing with her but it did get to me. I didn't really need all this on top of being really worried about him at the minute. I don't think I'll order the tripe anyway because we would probably have to invest in another freezer for that, and I can't really risk buying this much since he gets fed up with pretty much anything I feed him in a matter of weeks.

This whole thing is really stressing me out. My family kept calling me crazy but I was really convinced I was doing the right thing for the dog. Now I'm not quite so sure anymore. He doesn't seem like there's anything wrong with him, he's alert and playful as usual, he even chased after a deer this morning! But I'm really starting to worry about him and feel like I'm incapable of taking care of my own dog. I don't understand why he's constipated again. And I don't really know what to feed him anymore. I know for a fact he's hungry and will eat fruit and treats, but I can hardly feed him only fruit, kidney and heart... Knowing him, he'd stop eating this soon too! He won't eat raw or kibble, and I don't think I can afford wet.

I'm really sorry for this long post, I guess I needed to vent and no one's on my side at home! But I just wanted to ask, has anyone's dog been fussy about raw meat? And what did you do about it? I'm always reading about how happy everyone's dogs are at every meal time, it makes me sad because I really had my heart set on raw for him, and the last thing I want is to have to put him back on Pedigree :(
 
#1,062 ·
Hi everyone. I have a 6.5-month old Japanese Spitz puppy that I've really wanted to move onto raw. Mainly because he hates kibble and it makes the most sense to me. Reni is our first dog that's officially 'mine' and I just love him to bits. We still have some kibble (Taste of the Wild + some Orijen/Acana samples) left that we just can't afford to throw away so I've been doing one meal kibble and one meal raw for about two to three weeks now. I started off with chicken, but he's also tried rabbit and turkey, and some beef mince and ox heart. I've also tried giving him a bit of kidney this week. He's been absolutely fine until now...

..........I'm really sorry for this long post, I guess I needed to vent and no one's on my side at home! But I just wanted to ask, has anyone's dog been fussy about raw meat? And what did you do about it? I'm always reading about how happy everyone's dogs are at every meal time, it makes me sad because I really had my heart set on raw for him, and the last thing I want is to have to put him back on Pedigree :(
You say you've been feeding one meal kibble/one meal raw for two to three weeks now. I think you've moved too fast with the variety you've given him

Chicken
Rabbit
Turkey
Beef Mince
Ox heart
Kidney
Tuna

That's an awful lot of different foods in three weeks. It should take a couple of months to introduce that much variety.

Have you read the beginning of this thread where it tells you to start of with one type of meat, usually chicken, and feed that for a week or two before introducing a second meat and feed just the chicken and second meat for a week or so before introducing a third, etc.

Rather than give him chicken carcasses, maybe give chicken wings for the moment as there is less bone than carcasses and only give enough for his poos to be firm. If he's constipated he's had too much bone, as you've already said.

How much kibble have you got left? If he hates it as you say there's not much point in continuing with it. Can you not donate it to a rescue or shelter. I did that with mine and put Poppy straight onto raw.

Read up a bit more until you understand how to go about starting off, introduce new meats slowly. Put food down, leave for 15 mins, if he doesn't eat it all then take it up until the next meal time. If he doesn't eat it don't give him anything else, hold off on the treats, just keep putting the food down, he wont starve himself.

As for 27kg of tripe, that's an awful lot to find freezer space for. But if you do get some could you not feed it outside rather than in your room, I don't think anyone likes the smell of tripe and certainly not in their room.

As for your family, do plenty of research and present your findings of the benefits of a raw diet and how poor quality Pedigree is.
 
#1,063 ·
hi cinnsally,

thanks for the long post. it is actually helpful in these circumstances. my reply however will be a bit shorter :tongue_smilie:

so everyone goes through this phase and some still do like sarahferret. her whippet has been on raw for over a year now and is a very fussy eater. please do not stress. here are a few do's and don'ts...

do

read through this basic guide to raw - http://puppybutt.weebly.com/uploads/7/6/9/2/7692088/beginners_guide_to_prey_model_raw_rv.4.1.pdf - it's a very simple easy to read guide and makes things as simple as they should be.

feed at irregular meal times
- if you feed breakfast between 7am - 9am and dinner between 6pm - 9pm that stops your dog's stomach working at specific times. when you feed at exactly the same time every day and you skip a meal the dog with throw up green slime (bile) because you skipped a meal. also dogs in the wild don't always eat at exactly the same time every day.

feed, and leave the food for 15-30 minutes
- if your pup has not eaten in that time then pick it up and in the freezer it goes for the next meal. if you have to feed in your room then sit on your bed and come onto the forum and just observe your pup eating rather than watching over him. maybe he doesn't like to be watched like a hawk while he eats (but we need to be around just in case something gets stuck - hardly ever does but just in case...)

multiple in / out / in / out / in / out of the freezer for food is perfectly fine. (for a dog that is)

offer the same food again
-try offer the same food at least 3 times before making the choice to choose a different meat for the next meal.

don'ts

dont stress
-worrying if you dog is going to eat while he is trying to eat this will cause him to stress and make him not want to eat.

feeding something different when he doesn't want to eat
- if he doesn't want to eat what you have offered and you try something else, this will teach him that being fussy is ok and mummy will give me something (eventually) that i like (no matter how many times i refuse). it's a vicious cycle.

feed treats when he hasn't eaten breakfast
-if you feed treats during the day and he hasn't eaten breakfast this is teaching him that he will not have to eat because he can get some treats later during the day to keep him going. if he doesn't eat breakfast, then cut back on the treats for the day. just like children, no breakfast no treats. simple. :crazy:

if the weather is very hot he may also not want to eat as much, try feeding him frozen meals.

also i wouldn't order 27kg tripe. i am a crazy person but that amount is far beyond crazy, even for me :tongue_smilie: . 27kg of tripe will last you forever and a day! just think if you feed 200g per meal then 27kg will be 135 meals :yikes: . to put your mind at ease my puppy's treats come from germany - it's no big deal, and Orijen comes from canada :tongue_smilie:

how many times do you feed you puppy? have you weighed him and worked out the ratio of food weight per meal

my puppy is very good at self-regulating, so I'm not too worried when he doesn't feel like eating much.

oh and on a fully raw diet dogs won't pee or poo very much. when my pup was on Orijen he pooed about 7 times a day. when we went onto raw he now poos about 3 times a day, more if i over feed or if he has had loads of treats and food.

please, please, please don't stress! i get moaned at by my housemate all the time, i just ignore it. so best you just ignore people when they moan at you :D
 
#1,064 ·
Oh cinnsally I really feel your pain. As whitefire said, I have a fussy one. I was in tears last week because she skipped fours meals in a row.

You are doing exactly what I did, and trust me in that you are making it worse trying to coax pup to eat. By getting anxious, hand feeding and continually offering something else, you are actually encouraging fussy eating. I always did that, and that's why I still have a problem.

It is incredibly hard on the owner being strong and not giving into the demands of a fussy dog, but I stuck to my guns last week, and she did eventually eat. Last night she again tried to leave her dinner, but because she learnt last week nothing different was going to get offered, she gave in and ate.

My advice:
Get a vet check up so you know there's no medical reason for lack of appetite and difficulty toileting.
Pick a diet and stick to it. Either raw or commercial.
Put meals down at meal time and take away after ten minutes if not eaten.
Feed nothing, and I mean no treats or anything between meals.
Do not hand feed.
Do not get angry or upset at meal times. Dog will feel your emotion and an unsettled dog won't eat.

If you wish to raw feed, get a week's worth of chicken meals. Persevere with that. It may take two weeks for it to get eaten if meal times don't work out. Pop the food in fridge or freezer and try again next meal. Only when you have used up that chicken should you start thinking about offering a new meat.

You have to be strict and tough, and you will probably shed many more tears, but you need to do it or you will have this as an ongoing problem.

No I need to get better at taking my own advice!
 
#1,065 ·
You've already had some good advice so I will not cover what already has been said.

I suppose I should mention I live in Slovenia where I don't think many people feed their dogs prey model or BARF, at least not as far as I've seen on forums etc. And I don't think I'd attempt going to a butcher's and asking for bones for the dog. My family obviously think I'm insane, poisoning him, spending too much on him etc., but were willing to go along with my little project.
I don't know what your butchers are like in Slovenia but I know we've found a nice butcher here in Germany that is attached to it's own slaughterhouse. We therefore asked them to supply green tripe, heart and offal. They are not allowed to have tripe it in the shop but we reserve it on Tuesday and pick it up on Friday from the back of the shop. It may be possible to make similar arrangements of you can find a similar butcher.

27-28kg is a standard order from sites in Germany mainly due to the fact they deliver in a large polystyrene box. There's nothing to say you need to put all tripe in it. One site I have used in the past is Der BARF Shop | Home although they are shortly going on holiday. Not sure about payment methods though and it's not exactly cheap.

One of the things I would do in your position, if you are a native speaker is search for forums, breed specific or BARF using the native language. Breed specific doesn't necessarily mean your own ;) Nothing to stop you looking at a wide range until you find one which covers the topic. If you are not a native speaker but know someone else who is, maybe you could get them to help.

I don't know how common commercial foods are in Slovenia. You may find many people feed "raw" without any of the labels normally associated with it where commercial food is the normal method of feeding.
 
#1,066 · (Edited)
Hii,

Fantastic thread :) Although I only got to about page 40 :tongue_smilie:

I have recently written down a typical menu for my doglets, and realised it is pretty much mince based (I order from Davids Doggie Dinners - they are DAF minces)

I just wanted your opinion on their updated menu...

I prefer ordering online and it seems minces are one of the main things you can order...

So here is the menu;

Monday = AM: Chicken chunks and livers
PM: Duck wings

Tuesday = AM: Lamb mince and kidneys
PM: Remaining lamb mince

Wednesday = AM: Choice chunks and tripe
PM: Lamb bones

Thursday = AM: Turkey mince and livers
PM: Remaining turkey mince

Friday = AM: Beef chunks and kidneys
PM: Chicken wings

Saturday = AM: Oily fish mince and livers
Frozen sardine stuffed kongs midday
PM: Remaining oily fish mince

Sunday: AM: Venison mince and kidneys
PM: Remaining venison mince

My Terrier loves all of the above (my greyhound is being fussy) but I would just like to know if I am giving them the right things...

My reasons for only 3 boney days is that if I gave bone daily they get a tad constipated (probably as there is bone in the minces too!)

Any advice/help structuring my dogs feeding plan will be grately appreciated :D
 
#1,067 ·
Hi. I'm a newbie to the forum but not to barf.
My ESS had terrible problems as a youngster - diarrhea and sickness - so I looked into feeding something other than commercial dog food and discovered Ian Billinghurst's books. However, he stresses the importance of including fruit and veg in the diet and my dog was not keen on this idea. She had an amazing ability to pick out the tiniest piece of veg, lick it clean and place it at the side of her bowl so I didn't fully embrace the diet preferring to stick with half home-made cooked food (with hidden veggies) and some raw. She was fit and well on this diet.
Sadly she died last month and the house was too quiet without a dog so little Millie (11 week old ESS) has come to stay. The breeder weened the pups on a diet of kibble and chicken wings so I thought this was a good opportunity to fully embrace raw food. I was quite surprised to read that generally people here don't feed veggies on a regular basis and understand your reasoning behind this. Millie, however, loves all fruit and veg so far and happily steals it out of my veg basket when I've picked some for dinner. As long as she had plenty of meat/bones etc. is this a problem?
Also, Billinghurst advocates adding vitamins to the diet. This always rather baffled me as never seemed to be exact quantities so I always stuck to Petabs, a multivitamin. No-one here seems to mention vitamin supplements at all so I'm assuming everything dogs need comes from the rmb.
Are there recommended books to read on the subject? My OH is a bit of a worrier and is convinced that we'll do something wrong and ruin Millie for life. I, on the other hand, worry less and believe that as long as she gets a bit of everything she should do just fine.
 
#1,068 ·
hi millipede

when my pup was on Orijen he wouldn't leave me alone if i had fruit or veg and i would have to give him some, since switching to raw / prey model he doesn't even bother any more with fruit or veg.

there is a big difference between BARF and a raw / prey model diet. BARF advocates more bones, less meat and includes fruit and veg but the prey model / raw diet mimics what the wild dogs (not JUST wolves) eat in the wild when they hunt. we don't see wild dogs climbing apple trees to grab an apple :hand: also because of the short digestive track and the chemistry compound of fruit and veg you'll have to pulp the fruit and veg to allow the nutrients to be digested. if you inspect Millie's poo you will notice the chunks of fruit and veg undigested. most of us on here who feed raw don't feed veg and fruit as part of the staple, but if Millie gets them as treats then that's fine too.

here's a great beginners guide to raw - http://puppybutt.weebly.com/uploads/7/6/9/2/7692088/beginners_guide_to_prey_model_raw_rv.4.1.pdf (it includes the do's and don'ts).

i personally don't supplement any vitamins because the meat i give my pup is not process minced meats instead they are full chunks of meat (some bone in and some off bone) direct from the butcher. the only supplement i give maybe twice a week is salmon oil because i think it works wonders for my boy's coat. i also feed green tripe so there must be a few bits of grass and veg / fruit in there.
 
#1,070 ·
OK little bit of help here please :) 5 month old collie/lab she's been on raw for a month and a bit now, and generaly her diet consists of chicken leg quarters, beef ribs (she can't eat the bone in them) pork chunks with skin, pork mince, liver (pork or lamb) kidney (pork)

She's also had lamb duck venison, pilchards (tined) herring, mackeral, seabass and eggs


now a typical days food is 600g and would be

chicken thigh or 2 drumstics or 2 wings
chunk of pork/pork mince
kidney/fish/liver

now that was working fine untill we ran out of the fish, if she's not given the fish she gets very very hard poos, turning into little balls, even if there's only 1 thigh bone in her diet. (which isn't over 10% surely!) what else can she have that might have soften them up again, offal doesn't seem to effect her insides at all, I don't mind feeding fish everyday, but wondered if there might be such a thing as to much fish!
 
#1,074 ·
I wanted to say thanks to DirtyGertie, whitefire, Sarahferret, and Goblin for all the excellent advice on my fussy eater. I'm very sorry for not thanking you sooner but things have been quite hectic, I've had lots of work recently, and have been dealing with an absolute invasion of ticks.

Anyway, the tough love approach with Reni's food did work wonderfully, he only missed one meal and was then eating on his own. It was too good to be true. The thing is that my parents were away at the time, and since they've been back, things have become even worse than before. My mother is always giving him treats and he hasn't been eating nowhere near enough actual food.

I tried talking to her several times, and now we're at the point where we just start arguing and I give up because I can't move her an inch. Whenever Reni turns his nose up at his food, she'll tell me to either give him something else that he likes, or cook the meat. And when I take his food away, she accuses me of being cruel and starving him. I feel like I'm failing my pup and harming him because I'm incapable of doing something about this. It's hard enough trying to do the right thing and be tough without being accused of starving my own dog on purpose!

I'm really sorry for going off topic, I didn't mean to go on about this. It's just really difficult, and I needed to vent.

Anyway...

I don't know what your butchers are like in Slovenia but I know we've found a nice butcher here in Germany that is attached to it's own slaughterhouse. We therefore asked them to supply green tripe, heart and offal. They are not allowed to have tripe it in the shop but we reserve it on Tuesday and pick it up on Friday from the back of the shop. It may be possible to make similar arrangements of you can find a similar butcher.

27-28kg is a standard order from sites in Germany mainly due to the fact they deliver in a large polystyrene box. There's nothing to say you need to put all tripe in it. One site I have used in the past is Der BARF Shop | Home although they are shortly going on holiday. Not sure about payment methods though and it's not exactly cheap.

One of the things I would do in your position, if you are a native speaker is search for forums, breed specific or BARF using the native language. Breed specific doesn't necessarily mean your own ;) Nothing to stop you looking at a wide range until you find one which covers the topic. If you are not a native speaker but know someone else who is, maybe you could get them to help.

I don't know how common commercial foods are in Slovenia. You may find many people feed "raw" without any of the labels normally associated with it where commercial food is the normal method of feeding.
I'm not sure I would be able to find a similar butcher here, I'm pretty sure there aren't any slaughterhouses around. I might have more luck trying to ask local farmers.

But just out of interest, how large is this 27-28kg box? We do have quite a lot of freezer space, but I don't really have a feeling how much 27kg of meat would actually take up. I have already looked at the site you linked, it says they ship to the EU, but when I try to register, there are only a few EU countries available in the drop-down list. No Slovenia, of course. As for the prices, they are actually cheaper than the place I was looking at that was willing to ship here!

I think a lot of people do feed raw here, but I don't think they put too much thought into it. I've read about some people who feed BARF. There's actually a BARF website but it hasn't been updated in years. In the countryside, people do feed leftovers, cooked food (including bones), lots of grains. But I do think commercial food is the norm. Definitely no companies specialising in raw food for pets!
 
#1,075 ·
Parents eh?! Again you aren't alone. There was a thread yesterday from someone with a fussy dog who's parents kept feeding inappropriate food. Perhaps you could ask them to let you do it your way for a week without interference to see what happens.. if they give you a chance they will see it works. Gentle negotiation often works with uncooperative parents :)
 
#1,076 ·
hello again.

we're all here to help and listen to you vent, and we have all had some sort of objection to our choice of feeding for our dogs :mad2:

you could also try asking your parents to feed a natural treat, like baked liver which is very cheap to make and you can count that as part of his diet. 400g of baked liver cut into very small pieces goes a lllllloooooooooooonnnnnnnnngggggg way with a small dog.

no it's not cruel to 'starve' your dog as dogs in the wild dont eat at 7am then 1pm and then 6pm every day in the wild? do they? i am NOT the type to say yes starve your dog, no way, but if you offer food and they dont want it then you're not starving your dog. dogs are opportunistic feeders so you are giving the opportunity but they dont want it.

i know it's not the same but i had objections from my housemate and best friend for the first few months. everyday i would have them on my back, still do sometimes and one day i told them to hush-up and keep their opinions to themselves and gave them evidence of the benefits, so now they are more forgiving. i dont feed heads or whole prey in front of my housemate as that would tip him over the edge.
 
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