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Am I crazy for even considering breeding?

4K views 67 replies 22 participants last post by  rocco33 
#1 ·
I have an 8 month old pup. We bought her to be a pet but because her breeder was going through a rough time we entered her in a show as a surprise to cheer her up. It was a championship show and she went on to win not only her category but also best puppy in breed despite us not having a clue what we were doing. Two judges on the day said she was an exceptional puppy with one offering to buy her and saying she was the best pup she had seen in over 20 years. She also has a wonderful temperament so calm and sweet.

Since then a few people have asked us if we intend to breed her. We never intended to and to be honest I'm not sure I will ever be able to because I think the responsibility of finding good homes for the puppies would weight very heavily on me but another part of me feels if she is excellent quality then I have a responsibility to the breed as whilst they aren't a vulnerable breed they are on the one to watch list. Obviously I have no intention of doing anything until she is a lot older but just like when I was buying a puppy I like to investigate everything to ensure I come to the right decision.

Obviously if I go ahead I would be asking for the help and support of her breeder and other friends I have made in the breed community and will be doing the necessary health testing etc but I had a couple more general questions that I wanted to get answers before I even go that far as I am sure they would all be happy for us to breed and I wouldn't want to feel pressured into breeding if it isn't right for us.

Firstly I know that breeding can obviously lead to complications for the bitch and I just wondered if anybody knew any figures on this ie. percentages. The money for c-sections etc wouldn't be a problem but our girl comes first before anything else (including myself and my husband!!) and I'd like to have an idea of just how much of a risk it is. Secondly we always intended to get a second pup ourselves. If and it's still a big if we decided to breed is there any advantages or disadvantages to keeping one of her own pups with regard to how they would get on in the future.

I have bought book of the bitch and am working my way through it but if anybody can suggest any other reading material as well that would be useful.
 
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#2 ·
I certainly don't think you're crazy for considering breeding at all, and I think you've begun to consider it for far better reasons than most do.

Whilst there's obviously no shortage of people breeding I think there's (at least currently) plenty of room for more good, conscientious ones who care about their own dogs and the state of their breed as a whole.

I can't help with statistics re. c-sections etc. but there are some excellent articles about things to take into account when breeding (from a genetics perspective) on this website. The Champdogs forum has got a good breeding section which often has some interesting topics on.

For now I'd carry on with the showing, get to know the people within the breed and the breed itself whilst carrying on with your research into breeding itself.

Good luck!! :Happy
 
#3 ·
Thanks if we do decide to breed we'll have no shortage of help etc with choosing a mate etc. One of the good friends I've made does run a website on health matters for our breed and the ancestry group so that side of things would be well and truly take care of. The people I've met and know already within the breed are all caring towards their pets and passionate about the breed. If I decided to go ahead I could do nothing other than do everything properly and I suppose that's where the craziness comes in. I know how much hard work it will be and I know how much I would worry about my girl and each and every puppy. The responsibility for ensuring they find homes where they will be loved and well cared for.
 
#4 ·
I have an 8 month old pup. We bought her to be a pet but because her breeder was going through a rough time we entered her in a show as a surprise to cheer her up. It was a championship show and she went on to win not only her category but also best puppy in breed despite us not having a clue what we were doing. Two judges on the day said she was an exceptional puppy with one offering to buy her and saying she was the best pup she had seen in over 20 years. She also has a wonderful temperament so calm and sweet.

Well I think I would wait until my bitch was older and had won a little more than one class and a BP before making a decision. Exceptional puppies do not always go on to become exceptional adults, neither are they necessarily the best brood bitches.

Since then a few people have asked us if we intend to breed her. We never intended to and to be honest I'm not sure I will ever be able to because I think the responsibility of finding good homes for the puppies would weight very heavily on me but another part of me feels if she is excellent quality then I have a responsibility to the breed as whilst they aren't a vulnerable breed they are on the one to watch list. Obviously I have no intention of doing anything until she is a lot older but just like when I was buying a puppy I like to investigate everything to ensure I come to the right decision.

the only responsibility you have is to the dog you have and make sure it has the best life possible, it does not lie on your shoulders to ensure the continuation of the breed.

Obviously if I go ahead I would be asking for the help and support of her breeder and other friends I have made in the breed community and will be doing the necessary health testing etc but I had a couple more general questions that I wanted to get answers before I even go that far as I am sure they would all be happy for us to breed and I wouldn't want to feel pressured into breeding if it isn't right for us.

Firstly I know that breeding can obviously lead to complications for the bitch and I just wondered if anybody knew any figures on this ie. percentages. The money for c-sections etc wouldn't be a problem but our girl comes first before anything else (including myself and my husband!!) and I'd like to have an idea of just how much of a risk it is. Secondly we always intended to get a second pup ourselves. If and it's still a big if we decided to breed is there any advantages or disadvantages to keeping one of her own pups with regard to how they would get on in the future.

I have bought book of the bitch and am working my way through it but if anybody can suggest any other reading material as well that would be useful.
Statistics are meaningless as risks are relative not absolute and vary from breed to breed and individual to individual.

Nothing in life is risk free.

You have to decide if, after all the other factors have been taken into consideration, whether or not you are prepared to accept the risks and also if you are prepared to take puppies back if they bounce.
 
#6 ·
Thanks I have no intention of making the decision until she is older and we have entered in further shows and will see how she progresses. If she doesn't continue to do well I absolutely would not breed from her. I appreciate what you say about it not being my responsibility to ensure the continuation of the breed but actually I do think if you love a breed and you want it to continue to thrive and be healthy then you do need people with passion for the breed and love in their hearts for the individual dogs as well. Our breed has been quite healthy in the UK but indiscriminate breeding in the US has meant there are much more health problems over there. A lot of the good breeders are getting older and they won't carry on forever. If we don't ensure their knowledge is passed onto a younger generation then there would be problems.

As for the statistics bit you are of course right. I can usually be dispassionate and logical in my decision making and I've always found statistics a useful tool. There are a lot of scare stories about what can go wrong but I've not seen much in the way of whether there is a 1 in 10 or 1 in 1000 or 1 in a 1,000,000 chance of things happening. As for whether I'd be willing to take back puppies of course I would. My biggest concern is whether I'd be able to find homes I deemed good enough to begin with. If there was a problem I'd take them back in a heartbeat.
 
#13 ·
You are right not all dogs need to be bred but if good, responsible caring breeders don't exist then all that's left is puppy farmers and rescues would continue to be overflowing. I can assure you if and it's a very big if I decide to breed then I would be happy to take any of my puppies back at any life stage if their owners were unable to cope with them. Rescues are not full of dogs from responsible breeders.
 
#11 ·
You have some time yet, and of course she would need to be tested for everything the breed club recommends (and more, if you are as conscientious as some progressive breeders are). I wouldn't make any decisions now, as many puppies show great promise but don't develop to become great adults. And it must all depend on the health tests.

If you make up your mind before the results come in, then a "maybe" or slightly "less than average" test result might mean you still go on to breed from her... just because you've prepared yourself to do so. I know little about your breed, but in some breeds there are people who don't health test, and consider it unnecessary... these folk (if there are any in that breed) might still encourage you to breed even if the tests aren't as good as you'd hoped for. It already sounds like there's a little bit of pressure to breed being put upon you.

Not a decision to be taken lightly, as I'm sure you know, but it might take just as much strength if not more to say No.
 
#12 ·
You have some time yet, and of course she would need to be tested for everything the breed club recommends (and more, if you are as conscientious as some progressive breeders are). I wouldn't make any decisions now, as many puppies show great promise but don't develop to become great adults. And it must all depend on the health tests.

If you make up your mind before the results come in, then a "maybe" or slightly "less than average" test result might mean you still go on to breed from her... just because you've prepared yourself to do so. I know little about your breed, but in some breeds there are people who don't health test, and consider it unnecessary... these folk (if there are any in that breed) might still encourage you to breed even if the tests aren't as good as you'd hoped for. It already sounds like there's a little bit of pressure to breed being put upon you.

Not a decision to be taken lightly, as I'm sure you know, but it might take just as much strength if not more to say No.
Thanks for the advice. I would absolutely be guided by the health tests and I know we have bags of time to make a decision but my primary concern was her and regardless of whether she is the perfect specimen with the most amazing health test results ever I would still want to see how much of a risk to her having pups would be. The people within our breed that I know do health test and certainly would not encourage me to breed if they weren't within the breed club parameters to begin with. I may have to speak to our breed health expert to get the information I want with regard to statistics.

I can assure you that I would never be talked into breeding if my heart and mind wasn't 100% convinced that I could do it properly.

But does anybody know about my second point about whether there are advantages or disadvantages to keeping a pup in terms of their relationship?
 
#18 ·
Come on now, you know what I am saying, don't twist my words. I've read enough times in these forums the "proper" way to "go about starting a breeding program". This person doesn't want to be a "breeder" this member is considering breeding her puppy because she thinks the puppy is special. There is no need for it. There is no need to put the dog through it, and there is no need to create more puppies, when there are already "caring responsible ethical breeders" providing these puppies for the people who want them.
 
G
#20 ·
I don't know if ruwise should breed or not, but nor do I think breeding should be a blanket, "no don't do it" either.
Being a pet has nothing to do with whether or not a dog should be bred, and actually, I would hope that most breeding dogs are pets first and foremost.
Anyone who puts two dogs together with the intention of producing puppies is a breeder, so yes, this poster is thinking about becoming a breeder.
I'm not twisting anything, I just don't think there is enough information to give a definitive answer.
 
#21 ·
One if the questions I would be asking myself is whether I have enough experience myself. I'm not sure but I got the impression from some of your earlier threads in dog chat that Nuala might be your first dog. Do you feel you have enough experience of dogs in general to be able to offer the sort of advice and guidance needed to puppy/prospective puppy owners?
 
#49 ·
Lol luckily I like my dog have a very calm temperament!! My score on what dog I am when angry is 100% golden retriever. I appreciate what everybody is saying and will take it all on board. I do have a different definition of backyard breeder to lorilou in that I see it as being somebody who breeds their dog regardless of whether it is deemed a good representation of the breed to any other dog without health testing primarily motivated by the money they could make from the pups. This certainly wouldn't be the case with me. In fact I recently heard of a case of a man taking an in season staffy to the park hoping to find another random male staffy so his bitch could have pups as he 'already had buyers for some pups'.

Our bitch is currently endorsed so we couldn't breed from her without the full backing of her breeder and nor would I want to. If we do decide to do this it would be in about 2 years once I had watched a more experienced breeder each step of the way and they could mentor me through the process. Nuala is not my first dog I grew up with dogs all my life but she is my first one as an adult and of course I still do have a lot to learn but I don't rush into anything and I am by nature a planner. I don't make decisions about anything on a whim. As for experience levels everybody does have to start somewhere and some of the most reputable breeders in my breed have admitted they were far less prepared than I when they got their first dog and they also never intended to show or breed. One even admitted that the breeder they got their first pup from was less than stellar. A lot of the good breeders that I know are getting on a bit and they won't be around for ever and dodgy breeders are on the increase which is one of the factors that does weigh heavily on me as I do really care about the breed. As for finding homes for pups our breed already has a puppy waiting list that is huge so that wouldn't be a problem. What might be a problem is me deeming them worthy!
 
#32 ·
Why do I say there is no need for this dog to be bred? Because she is not part of a breeding program. She is not being bred to strengthen bloodlines, or improve a breed, or create a new family line. She is not being bred because there is a waiting list of people wanting a dog of her lineage. There is no need for this dog to have puppies. If the OP would like to learn what it is like to care for a pregnant bitch and help with birth and raise puppies, I am sure there is a rescue somewhere who is looking for a foster home for a pregnant dog. This person, from what I have read, has their first dog and they are all excited because she won a show. That is not a reason to breed.

A backyard breeder is someone who thinks their family pet is so special she must have a litter of pups. See above for the reasons this is not a valid reason to breed.
 
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#34 ·
Your interpretation of the term is obviously vastly different from the majority.

I am not sure why you feel the need to label someone perjoratively as you do but it is not necessary nor is it constructive. The OP asked for views, not castigation, it is entirely possible to provide detached feedback without hurling meaningless personal insults.

Why not try it?
 
#37 ·
I have an 8 month old pup. We bought her to be a pet but because her breeder was going through a rough time we entered her in a show as a surprise to cheer her up. It was a championship show and she went on to win not only her category but also best puppy in breed despite us not having a clue what we were doing. Two judges on the day said she was an exceptional puppy with one offering to buy her and saying she was the best pup she had seen in over 20 years. She also has a wonderful temperament so calm and sweet.

Since then a few people have asked us if we intend to breed her. We never intended to and to be honest I'm not sure I will ever be able to because I think the responsibility of finding good homes for the puppies would weight very heavily on me but another part of me feels if she is excellent quality then I have a responsibility to the breed as whilst they aren't a vulnerable breed they are on the one to watch list. Obviously I have no intention of doing anything until she is a lot older but just like when I was buying a puppy I like to investigate everything to ensure I come to the right decision.

Obviously if I go ahead I would be asking for the help and support of her breeder and other friends I have made in the breed community and will be doing the necessary health testing etc but I had a couple more general questions that I wanted to get answers before I even go that far as I am sure they would all be happy for us to breed and I wouldn't want to feel pressured into breeding if it isn't right for us.

Firstly I know that breeding can obviously lead to complications for the bitch and I just wondered if anybody knew any figures on this ie. percentages. The money for c-sections etc wouldn't be a problem but our girl comes first before anything else (including myself and my husband!!) and I'd like to have an idea of just how much of a risk it is. Secondly we always intended to get a second pup ourselves. If and it's still a big if we decided to breed is there any advantages or disadvantages to keeping one of her own pups with regard to how they would get on in the future.

I have bought book of the bitch and am working my way through it but if anybody can suggest any other reading material as well that would be useful.
I think there are a lot of things to think about, which you have obviously started doing and if you are showing and making friends there, you should get the support. In answer to your question, and out of hours c-section here is around £1400 but I'm in a more expensive area.

One thing that hasn't been pointed out, so I will, is that it is much more difficult finding good homes for rare/vulnerable breeds. People often think because there aren't many of them that they would be easy to find good homes for, but the opposite is true. There are very few good homes that are interested and most of those will go to established breeders. There is usually a reason why they are a vulnerable breed and that's usually because they are not very popular.
 
#50 ·
This is something that I will have to take into account next year if my girl passes her patella tests.

The last sentence made me laugh as I am quite often on the phone with my friend and she has five E.T.T.'s and they make such a racket that we can't hear each other and my friend will say "I'm not surprised they are a vulnerable breed".
 
#39 ·
Every breeder has to start somewhere.

I think it's incredibly rude to say the OP will be a backyard breeder, based on nothing more than your own uninformed opinion. The OP has explained several times why they want to breed their dog, and are obviously researching and thinking things through thoroughly.
They are clearly heavily involved in the world of their breed and in a great position to get expert advice and mentoring for the future.
Is it any wonder people disappear from this forum when they come on and do the right thing, asking for advice and showing they are responsible, and then get accused of being a BYB by someone who has absolutely no idea?
 
#40 ·
On the whole I am against breeding in most circumstances, because there are too many in shelters, because a lot of people don't know much about genetics, because of the issue of finding good homes etc.
However if we don't have new people showing an interest in responsible breeding then what will happen when the existing breeders become to elderly to carry on on share their knowledge.
The OP may be developing an interest and that is a good thing, it doesn't mean they are actually going to go ahead and do it.
To me is seems like the OP is taking all the right things in to account.
 
G
#41 ·
If the OP’s dog comes from a responsible breeder, it may very well be that the responsible breeder does a very large part of the work of planning, preparing, and supervising any potential breedings. This is not an irresponsible way to go about things, and it does happen fairly often with co-ownerships or simply an agreement at sale.
One of my friends has a dog that she bought with the agreement that the breeder could plan one litter from the dog IF the dog turned out how the breeder was hoping and passed all relevant health tests etc. As it was, as the dog matured, my friend felt that breeding would not be right for her, and informed her breeder of this. The breeder respected her wishes, and the dog has since been spayed.
 
#42 ·
If the OP's dog comes from a responsible breeder, it may very well be that the responsible breeder does a very large part of the work of planning, preparing, and supervising any potential breedings. This is not an irresponsible way to go about things, and it does happen fairly often with co-ownerships or simply an agreement at sale.
One of my friends has a dog that she bought with the agreement that the breeder could plan one litter from the dog IF the dog turned out how the breeder was hoping and passed all relevant health tests etc. As it was, as the dog matured, my friend felt that breeding would not be right for her, and informed her breeder of this. The breeder respected her wishes, and the dog has since been spayed.
Exactly the same with Cash's breeder. His mum is not owned by the breeder's ( although was bred by them ) but by a 'normal' pet owning buyer, but was brought back to have her litter which the breeder's took total control over. And they are far from BYB's :)
 
#43 ·
As long as you intend to health test and get advice from those in the "know" in your breed on a suitable stud I don't see any issue with breeding being an option for you in the future. Good on you for wanting to learn more and do the best you can. If you'd like someone to chat to about it, feel free to inbox me :)

Good luck!!
 
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