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Advice on quality

2K views 18 replies 8 participants last post by  SavannahKitten 
#1 ·
Hi all,

I'm new here and new to breeding so I'd appreciate some advice.

Now we all know that they're all top quality but my Bengal Queen had 3 kittens, unfortunately the only girl passed away on Friday at almost 5 weeks! :(

However the two boys that are left are very different and my question is, how do you decide what babies are breed\show quality and what ones are pet quality.

I'm thinking that one of them is breeding quality because he has more of a contrast and better pattern but the other boy has more spots and is also gorgeous. How do you tell?

Pictures are here:

Elmstar Bengals Kittens

Fiona
 
#2 ·
Im certainly no expert as ive not had a litter yet, I ve only bred show dogs in the past..
I will be concentrating on type before coat/markings..
sure coat/markings play an important part of the package but I will be focusing on the breed standard as set out by the GCCF..
Study what is on the GCCF website and decide your interpritation of the breed standard.
there is no point just thinking one kitten 'looks' better than the other in your eyes, for showing there is a point system and if the kitten/ cat doesn't get the points then it won't do well in show land..
hope this helps a little..
plus for breeding, you may like to consider the size of its ears too or the thickness of its tail..
there seems to be a lot of breeders struggling with this problem at the moment..
whitened tummies are a good asset too xx
 
#8 ·
I think type is so far down the line with the Bengal, that it's difficult to get a cat that doesn't have great type if you're working with top lines, so the pattern and colour is what everybody's working for right now.

Large rosettes and whited bellies is where we're now at with Bengals, so unless your boys have that look (one or the other, preferably both) I personally wouldn't breed from them, or sell them for breeding.

I hope you don't mind me asking, but did you seek advice before buying your stud, or were you set on getting a silver? Silvers are quite difficult to work with to produce really good quality browns and snows and you run the risk of producing melanistic kittens, or snow variants that are not accepted. They work best with silver to silver matings.

I see you have cats from Glitterglam, so give Jill and call and ask her advice. She's very friendly and professional and should be able to point you in the right direction. :)
 
#9 ·
I hope you don't mind me asking, but did you seek advice before buying your stud, or were you set on getting a silver? Silvers are quite difficult to work with to produce really good quality browns and snows and you run the risk of producing melanistic kittens, or snow variants that are not accepted. They work best with silver to silver matings.
Thanks for the advice everyone.

I found advice quite hard to come by actually and there are differing opinions, I had read that silver to silver worked best but my partner was set on a silver.

I'm keen to keep, or buy, a brown or a snow to breed with the two girls I got from Jill and I think one of the boys I have may fit the bill but most of ours will just be going as pets. I guess a lot of this is in the eye of the beholder anyway?

I was pleased with the three we got from this silver to snow breeding though.

Fiona
 
#10 ·
Hi and welcome Fiona-sorry no nothing about show Bengals and only what i've read on here about pet Bengals and Bengals full stop,but the link on Mays post will help you lots,either way your kittens are adorable as are your queens and stud-good luck, oh maybe have a look at various Bengal sites on show results and this may help you compare also critiques in catpapers:)
 
#11 ·
Hi Fiona

Reading back through a thread from last week, I found the breeder of your silver stud boy speaking about selling studs and queens to people. She did say quite specifically that she only sells to people that there is a long established trust with - or newbies that want to do things her way.

http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-breeding/4237-new-slave-criteria-2.html

We have the same policy, we would only sell an active Queen or Stud to someone who we had total respect for, and a well established trust with.

Even some of the well know breeders have a questionable policy.

We are happy to mentor newbies into the breed but they must be willing to learn, understand our ways and why we do things our way.

At the end of the day it all comes down to one thing .... trust.
From what she says there she must either have a long and established trust with you, or she's mentoring you?

Can you not ask her for her advice about the quality of the kitties?

:eek:
 
#12 ·
From what she says there she must either have a long and established trust with you, or she's mentoring you?

Can you not ask her for her advice about the quality of the kitties?

:eek:
Funny that given that we'd never met her before and she didn't even answer an email when we updated her on Sisko's progress. It's also strange that she sold us a silver stud knowing that we didn't have any silver girls and stating that she didn't think that there were any problems breeding browns and snows with silvers.

However I'm quite pleased with the offspring from this silver to snow mating, even the poor little girl who passed away was gorgeous, so perhaps she had a point there?

I've been reading up on the TICA breed types and as far as I can see one of our boys looks good enough to breed from, his markings are very clear although there doesn't appear to be rosetting and are a bit like his dad's. The other one is beginning to look as though he may have rosetting but his paws are a bit on the silvery side. They both seem to have the right head shape and size. Their bellies, while not white, are off-white and spotty.

We've found that, in general, there's an unwillingness to share information but perhaps we've just been unlucky? We haven't got involved in the whole show thing so I guess that could be an option but, to be honest this whole thing has cost a fortune and everyone seems to want their bit of your money. What with the cost of active cats and catteries etc. At the moment I can see no reason to become a breeder other than to get in debt and just for the fact that we love the cats. I can understand why people do the BYB thing. We couldn't even get the name we wanted from the GCCF even though nobody had previously registered it.

Fiona

PS. Incidentally I love your Savannah's, they're absolutely gorgeous.
 
#13 ·
Fiona-you hit the nail on the head when you said about the reason most people go into breeding is for the sheer love and joy in doing so, as for the money side well mostly their isn't one and i'm not saying thats what you said but if making money is a big part of things for you-then you shouldn't do it:)Can i ask why you got into breeding Bengals in the first place-coz you sound a bit disheartened at the moment?:)
 
#14 ·
Fiona-you hit the nail on the head when you said about the reason most people go into breeding is for the sheer love and joy in doing so, as for the money side well mostly their isn't one and i'm not saying thats what you said but if making money is a big part of things for you-then you shouldn't do it:)Can i ask why you got into breeding Bengals in the first place-coz you sound a bit disheartened at the moment?:)
Hi Kelly,

Perhaps I gave the wrong impression, I love our cats and wouldn't change a thing. I am a little a bit down about our little girl but that's just one of those things I guess. I never thought this would be a money spinner though.

However what I don't like is all of these organisations, like the GCCF, making money for doing virtually nothing.

It was strange how we got into breeding Bengals, we got a moggy who was half bengal and we decided to research the breed. When we saw how gorgeous they were the interest just grew and eventually we decided to try breeding them. How on earth do you let your kittens go though?

Fiona
 
#15 ·
Know what you mean Fiona-your not on your own their(Gccf making moneys:rolleyes:),as for letting kittens go-the first litter who went OMG-though i knew their new families would pamper and spoil them-i cried coz it's like when your child goes on their 1st stopover-you think hope they've made their chocolate milky enough etc:DAnd you get a bit sort of-jealous that someone else is getting to take care of them and getting all their cuddles:rolleyes:But then you get pics and updates and your reassured and happy that they've made their new families as happy-and you feel so proud and thats very rewarding,now it's not nearly as bad-i always miss all of them terribly but it gets easier with each litter-because you know the joy them kitts will take with them to give their families and sounds hard but you have to harden as it's part and parcel of breeding,as with lots of sides of breeding or being part of a breeding family:)But when it all goes really well then it's like "yes-this is why we do it ":)Sorry :eek:went on one a bit:rolleyes::DSaying all this about hardening-i cried at ice age!
 
#16 ·
Funny that given that we'd never met her before and she didn't even answer an email when we updated her on Sisko's progress. It's also strange that she sold us a silver stud knowing that we didn't have any silver girls and stating that she didn't think that there were any problems breeding browns and snows with silvers.

However I'm quite pleased with the offspring from this silver to snow mating, even the poor little girl who passed away was gorgeous, so perhaps she had a point there?

I've been reading up on the TICA breed types and as far as I can see one of our boys looks good enough to breed from, his markings are very clear although there doesn't appear to be rosetting and are a bit like his dad's. The other one is beginning to look as though he may have rosetting but his paws are a bit on the silvery side. They both seem to have the right head shape and size. Their bellies, while not white, are off-white and spotty.

We've found that, in general, there's an unwillingness to share information but perhaps we've just been unlucky? We haven't got involved in the whole show thing so I guess that could be an option but, to be honest this whole thing has cost a fortune and everyone seems to want their bit of your money. What with the cost of active cats and catteries etc. At the moment I can see no reason to become a breeder other than to get in debt and just for the fact that we love the cats. I can understand why people do the BYB thing. We couldn't even get the name we wanted from the GCCF even though nobody had previously registered it.

Fiona

PS. Incidentally I love your Savannah's, they're absolutely gorgeous.
Hi Fiona

Firstly i did not ignore your email ...infact i never recieved an email updating me about Sisko
Second.. No we had never met before but after meeting & talking on a few occasions we believed you wanted to go into breeding Bengals for all the correct reasons
Perhaps we should be more like some other breeders & refuse to sell to novice breeders :mad:

We are always here to help in any way possible but if you dont ask for help ,how do we know that you need it

There is nothing anywhere to say that Silvers shouldnt be mated to Browns or Snows ...And most if not all breeders mate Silvers to non silvers with fantastic results

Fiona you have my phone number ...you only have to call :D
 
#19 ·
Funny that given that we'd never met her before and she didn't even answer an email when we updated her on Sisko's progress. It's also strange that she sold us a silver stud knowing that we didn't have any silver girls and stating that she didn't think that there were any problems breeding browns and snows with silvers.

However I'm quite pleased with the offspring from this silver to snow mating, even the poor little girl who passed away was gorgeous, so perhaps she had a point there?

I've been reading up on the TICA breed types and as far as I can see one of our boys looks good enough to breed from, his markings are very clear although there doesn't appear to be rosetting and are a bit like his dad's. The other one is beginning to look as though he may have rosetting but his paws are a bit on the silvery side. They both seem to have the right head shape and size. Their bellies, while not white, are off-white and spotty.

We've found that, in general, there's an unwillingness to share information but perhaps we've just been unlucky? We haven't got involved in the whole show thing so I guess that could be an option but, to be honest this whole thing has cost a fortune and everyone seems to want their bit of your money. What with the cost of active cats and catteries etc. At the moment I can see no reason to become a breeder other than to get in debt and just for the fact that we love the cats. I can understand why people do the BYB thing. We couldn't even get the name we wanted from the GCCF even though nobody had previously registered it.

Fiona

PS. Incidentally I love your Savannah's, they're absolutely gorgeous.
Thanks :D

The stud is a huge part of the breeding programme - without a doubt he would be the most expensive part of your breeding programme so you have to get it right as he will be siring your kittens for the next X number of years. There aren't that many problems as such, with having a silver stud siring your kittens (although some silvers can produce melanistic kittens), but unless you work with silver to silvers you probably won't get the best results.

I am fairly new to breeding myself. There's a lot of 'old school' breeders around that guard their 'secrets' jealously. There's also an inherent intolerance of new breeders and an attitude that they should learn by their own mistakes. I find this quite disgusting because to progress the breed we should be discouraging mistakes. :mad:

You have to be quite broad shouldered to do the whole 'show' thing. ;) Shows are very cliquey (particularly TICA ones that do the whole social thing). Little networks form and unless you want to suck up to the leaders you are so OUT! :)

You will find that you get into debt - particularly if you start off incorrectly. To try to recoup losses you really have to be selling your kittens as show/breeders and you can only do that if you have absolutely top quality cats of the type that demand high prices if they're sold as show/breeders (such as Bengals and Savannahs).

BYBs have even less chance of making money, selling their kittens at £100-200 instead of £500-£2000 so don't despair - you did the right thing by becoming registered. :)

If you can successfully change your attitude towards your new babies, you are going to be much more able to cope with letting them go. I look at each of my new babies as my foster children and it's made a huge difference.
 
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