Hi, just a quick hello I'm new on the forums I've been lurking for a while. But felt I had to say how appalled I was that pets at home are now selling tortoises. They had hermanns tortoises in a spot lit glass vivarium, with no apparent cool spots in the tank, they were hiding under a tiny fake plant in the only shade. They were also selling a starter kit that comprises of a small glass tank, that I don't think would be suitable at all. I just thought I'd share my distaste at all this and couldn't believe it when I saw the sign that they now stock reptiles. Anyway that's my little rant over, hope everyone is having a nice day

What worries me is that they are apparently obtaining their advice from the Tortoise trust. I went into the P@H store at Wigan a couple of weeks ago and I couldn't help but question the staff. I disagreed with some of their advice however they were adamant that they were doing everything right.

__________________
Luke (The fish dude)

Photography gear- Sony a200 DSLR with 18-70mm alpha lens, Sigma (sony fit) 70-300mm and Manfrotto neotec tripod. Coming soon: One Nikon D700 with all the trimmings.

you should of found a book on tortioses on the shelves and proved them wrong

I am glad that you used the word "apparently" - because this is totally untrue. Pets At Home have in fact IGNORED our advice and are in no way entitled to make claims otherwise. The Vivariums they are selling are unsuitable, the dietary advice is poor, and claims made about the origins of the tortoises being sold are patently false. We are advising unsuspecting purchasers to demand a refund and to file formal complaints with Trading Standards.

I hope this sets the record straight.

Andy Highfield
Tortoise Trust
Tortoise Trust Web - Start Page

Thanks for responding, the sooner P@H stores are shut down completely the better for everyone.

__________________
Luke (The fish dude)

Photography gear- Sony a200 DSLR with 18-70mm alpha lens, Sigma (sony fit) 70-300mm and Manfrotto neotec tripod. Coming soon: One Nikon D700 with all the trimmings.

except for me, cos then id had no job

but trust me that these feeling are not only from people outside the chain, but there is a LOT (and i mean a LOT) of people within the chain who feel the same way, mostly just general people on the shop floor. out of the 12 staff who work at my store, 10 of us have registered complaints about the standard of advice/equipment we are given on the reptile and fish sections. and its far from being just our store. it seems some stores are far more clued up than others.
at my store, the managers are pretty good, and only ever employ people with suitable backgrounds in animal care, so everyone at the store has a huge wealth of knowledge on the animals we sell, and as such, know that what we are being told about the fish and reptiles is a load of cobblers. we therefore, behind the upper managements back, try and get the customers on the right track with their animals, and we have an unofficial partnership with a local RSPCA reptile rescue centre to oversee things, and try and get people to get proper things like tortoise tables instead of the stuff we sell. although we could lose our jobs for this if people find out (so shhhhhhhh), we feel its just the right thing to do.

but we are just one store, and for every good store (and there are others), there must be 4 or 5 bad stores that let us down. mostly because the upper management tells us a load of bullc**p about the animals, the training programs are inadequate, and the store managers employ fools who know nothing about animals, and believe everything the upper management tell them!

something does need doing, i very much agree with this, but please dont think were all bad ^^'

JackandSally the spot light in question is actually a heater and the uva/b bulb is further up, but at a sufficient height for the rays to benefit the tortoises. Underneath the heater the basking temp is around 30-35c which is ideal for the torts. The other end of the enclosure is at around 20-25c, again ideal. There is sufficient shelter for them as there is a log cabin for them to walk into which is covered in a fake plant or the one you saw. There is also a heat mat installed which is kept on throughout the night so the tortoises don't get cold. Their food is dusted alternately with calcium and nutrobal. They have a bath and weigh check 3 times a week which is recorded. I have been breeding tortoises for 20 years and I have to say Pets at homes set up is one of the best I have ever seen and meets the requirements of the tortoises they sell perfectly. Yes we all know a tortoise table is better for the older tortoise but the ones they sell are a lot younger and a well ventilated viv is perfect for them, and that is what they have got. They send their staff on a week long training course before they can even look after a tort, how many other stores do you know of that do that?! And before the customer even buys the tort, they have to buy a book first and take a quiz on looking after tortoises! That level of animal welfare is unheard of!!! I think it is just because pets at home are a big chain of shops and people are quick to criticise or comment when they don't even know what policies they have in place. Please reply i'd be interested to hear a response!

I can assure you that criticisms of Pets at Home are not based on anything to do with the fact that they are "a large chain". They are based upon multiple observations of very poor husbandry practices at their stores and upon frankly atrocious advice provided to those who express an interest in purchasing a tortoise. The staff do indeed receive some minimal training - but it is evidently far from adequate.

The temperature measurements in the vivariums you cite sadly do not accord with those we have actually measured. We would be happy to visit another Pets at Home and repeat these if things have (very) recently changed. We would certainly not agree that the vivariums used are "ideal". Far from it.

While Pets at Home have made some efforts, it is clear to us that their staff lack experience when it comes to dealing with exotics - much less giving advice about them to the public.

Sadly, the diets observed in multiple stores set a terrible example. This is something they certainly need to address.

We do give them credit for the efforts made, but given that an animal's welfare is at stake, there are areas where significant improvements are required.

Andy Highfield
Tortoise Trust Web - Start Page
Jill Martin Fund for Tortoise Welfare and Conservation
Reg. Charity 1123430

Wigan store is my local store, they have a sign up saying when the 'expert' staff will be available but what about all the other times when its just 'ordinary' staff? are they going to turn a sale away because there is no one to give correct advise? i think not.

Im new to reptiles but im persistantly told the wrong size bugs are ok to feed when they clearly are not.

Most of the staff cant look after hamsters never mind reptiles and they couldnt care less, P@H has the highest turn over of staff of any shop i know, they may as well be selling clothes not animals.

__________________
http://s689.photobucket.com/albums/v...arleys_angels/

RAPHAEL FERRET SANCTUARY

Fighting for Tyson, he deserves to live.
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/...ing-tyson.html

wooo hoooo the judge saw sense, Tyson has been saved

slave to child, collies, cats, ferrets, rats, hamster, canaries, beardie, guineas, bunnies, silkie hens and ex battery hens

Oh and they are out of bugs more than they have them instock so what do they feed the ones for sale when they are yet again out of stock?

__________________
http://s689.photobucket.com/albums/v...arleys_angels/

RAPHAEL FERRET SANCTUARY

Fighting for Tyson, he deserves to live.
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/...ing-tyson.html

wooo hoooo the judge saw sense, Tyson has been saved

slave to child, collies, cats, ferrets, rats, hamster, canaries, beardie, guineas, bunnies, silkie hens and ex battery hens