Shaking can

Discussion in 'Dog Training and Behaviour' started by Lancs69, Jan 24, 2014.


  1. Lancs69

    Lancs69 PetForums Newbie

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    I've been told shaking a can with loads of coins in it is a good way of training stopping your dog doing something bad. We've been doing it when our puppy sctratches doors, chews carpet etc it works really well. But is it a bit cruel??
     
  2. Sarah1983

    Sarah1983 PetForums VIP

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    Depends on the dog imo. My current one would likely think it was a new toy and be all excited over it, my last one would have gone into hiding under the bed for several days.

    It's not the best method of dealing with the problems you're having though and there can be massive repercussions from it such as the dog becoming sound sensitive and fearful. Nor does it teach him what you do want him to do. If he's chewing the carpet then redirect him to something appropriate to chew and reward that. If he's scratching the door then get him to do something more appropriate and reward that. Pre-empt him where possible, if you think he's about to chew something he shouldn't distract him with something he can chew. You're far, far better off teaching a dog what you do want than simply punishing the behaviours you don't want and leaving them guessing at what is right.
     
  3. kodakkuki

    kodakkuki PetForums VIP

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    just using it as a noise distraction? no, can't call that cruel myself. now if you were using a shock collar... that's a different story! :thumbsup:
     
  4. Sarah1983

    Sarah1983 PetForums VIP

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    There are dogs out there who imo it would certainly be cruelty to use a rattle bottle with.
     
  5. kodakkuki

    kodakkuki PetForums VIP

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    i'd meant in general- the average dog will stop what they are doing when they hear an odd noise rather than tremble in a corner... as she mentioned a pup i figured id comment on the Average dog. a dog that reacts negatively to a shake bottle will probably cower from a raised voice or clapping of hands.
     
  6. smokeybear

    smokeybear PetForums VIP

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    Depends on the dog.

    It is the dog that determines (to a large degree) what is cruel or not.

    Have you read Don't Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor?


    You are punishing the dog for doing something inappropiate, but your punishment is not effective if you have to keep on doing it. ;)

    So, what will you do when it ceases to work, when you have desensitised the dog to this mode of punishment.

    Get something lounder?

    Shout?

    Smack?

    What is it that you would rather the dog do?

    Has the dog got a variety of chew toys?

    Do you give her meals in objects which make them enriching events?

    Stuff a kong, fill a wobbler, hide the food, scatter in grass etc etc

    As Jean Donaldson says (in her EXCELLENT book The Culture Clash) it is all chew toys to them. :)
     
  7. kodakkuki

    kodakkuki PetForums VIP

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    fantastic read- the classes i used for popp as a pup, the trainer handed out extracts from it to new members (leading to almost all of us then racing out to buy the rest!!)
     
  8. Sled dog hotel

    Sled dog hotel PetForums VIP

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    It may appear to stop them and be solving your immediate problem, but it can actually do longer term damage.

    The reason the puppy/dog stops is the sudden sharp shock of the noise. So basically its a response to something unpleasant basically a fear or anxiety response.

    Puppies go through several fear periods anyway, where they can start to react to sights sounds and situations naturally in the environment some they may have not even reacted to before, negative experiences can have a lasting impact especially if they are going through this period at the time.
    Using such things as rattle bottles and cans with stones, pennies etc, can actually make some noise phobic and reactive with fear to certain sounds eventually.
    Especially if you have a pup or dog that's not got the most confident outlook on life anyway, and is a more stressy or unconfident pup to start off with.
     
  9. Lancs69

    Lancs69 PetForums Newbie

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    Thanks for the help.

    It seems to work pretty well. Just don't really be wanting to do it every day for weeks!!
     
  10. Sarah1983

    Sarah1983 PetForums VIP

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    If you're having to keep doing it then I'd say it's not really working pretty well at all ;)
     
  11. ouesi

    ouesi PetForums Muck Magnet

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    “It works” sets the bar too low when it comes to measuring the effectiveness of a training tool or method.

    And as already mentioned, if you’re having to do it more than twice, it ain’t workin’. For punishment to be effective, it has to be unpredictable, more than 2 trials and it has not become predictable and you risk habituation or worse sensitization where the dog becomes over-reactive to startling sounds.

    I’m not a fan of startle tactics for various reasons, not the least of which is that my dogs are family dogs first and foremost. IOW, they have to live with young kids who bang and clatter and move quickly. The last thing I want from the dogs is for them to think that a loud or startling noise is meant to punish them.

    So in a sense my training will include loud and startling noises, but presented in such a way that the dogs learn they are no big deal.
    In fact, one of the tests for a therapy dog is that he/she does NOT react to a series of creative startling things which can include dropped metal crutches, pop open umbrella, and yep, penny can.
     
  12. smokeybear

    smokeybear PetForums VIP

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    Good Point, I carry out PAT (Pets as Therapy) assessments regularly and I drop a stainless steel bowl on the concrete floor.....................
     
  13. ouesi

    ouesi PetForums Muck Magnet

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    Yep :) Different assessors have their preferred startle tools. The dogs get exposed to a series of different types of bangs and crashes. They’re allowed to notice obviously, but they look for a minimal reaction and quick recovery.

    Just living in this house though, I ask a LOT of the dogs and their tolerance. This morning for example, I was carrying empty dog bowls, tripped over the corner of a baby gate, gate goes crashing on to the laminate floor, I drop two of the stainless steel dog bowls, and banged the wall with the other two as I tried to catch my balance. One of the two visiting dogs ran for cover, the other one froze. Meanwhile the two resident dogs were completely unperturbed. One (Bates of course) came over to see what was going on and to check for food spillage :rolleyes:
     
  14. BoredomBusters

    BoredomBusters PetForums VIP

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    The way to 'correctly' use an item like a rattle can is to use it as a consequence (punishment) that the dog understands as meaning they've just lost their chance of earning a reward because they ignored you.

    You have you use it AFTER you have taught the dog the correct way of behaving. If you just rattle it, the dog will eventually learn there are no consequences to the rattling and ignore it. And if you've taught the dog the correct way to behave, it's very likely you'd only need to use it once, in training, after that you can usually just remind the dog its there with a tap, not a rattle, and even that only once before the rattle can go away.

    I wouldn't use it on a puppy though, that's really not fair, especially if you're just rattling it, not teaching the dog anything.

    And no, I don't use rattle cans in my training. I just learned how to use them so I can explain to people why what they are doing is not going to work long term.
     
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