Phosphorus binders in raw food for CRF/CKD cats?

Discussion in 'Cat Health and Nutrition' started by doujyr, Mar 8, 2012.


  1. doujyr

    doujyr PetForums Member

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    hi

    still mulling over whether to take the plunge and order some ni raw minces. it's quite an expense if she doesn't like it.

    my cat has crf/ckd and i'm currently feeding nature's menu, to which i add renalzin. is it still recommended to add phosphorus binders to raw food, or is the phosphorus content somehow magically harmless as it's raw?

    thanks
     
  2. hobbs2004

    hobbs2004 PetForums VIP

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    Does your cat have raised blood phosphate levels?
     
  3. doujyr

    doujyr PetForums Member

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    i don't know :confused: i don't go to a private vet and the charity vet doesn't run extensive bloodwork, but he did suggest adding a phosphorus binder when she was first diagnosed with crf/ckd. and it's recommended on Tanya's site as phosphorus is a stressor on the kidneys. so i've been doing so, as it can't do any harm.
     
  4. hobbs2004

    hobbs2004 PetForums VIP

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    The reason that I am asking is that from what I know about raw and kidney disease it is fine to feed bones if the blood phosphate levels are not elevated. If they are, then one doesn't feed any bones or bonemeal but uses calcium carbonate instead to balance out the phosphorus in the food. One also ups the calcium/phosphorus ratio to be more calcium heavy. One also doesn't use things like brewer's yeast as this contains a lot of phosphorus.

    So, both bones and brewer's yeast are used in the NI. Perhaps you could sign up to Tanya's CRF support group to see what they think about raw feeding and phosphate binders. Or some of the raw feeding groups that are around?

    If your vet doesn't do diagnostic tests to see what is happening then how do they know (other than using some common practices) what needs to be addressed and that what is being addressed is working?
     
  5. hobbs2004

    hobbs2004 PetForums VIP

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    With any luck Ianthi and PP are going to hop by with their take on this.
     
  6. doujyr

    doujyr PetForums Member

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    a very good question! sadly i'm not in a position to afford a private vet, so i've no choice in the matter. so far it's just clinical symptoms such as weight, coat, demeanour, peeing buckets (!) and etc. besides, from what i've read there's nothing to be done to reverse crf/ckd so any more prodding and poking isn't much use.

    thanks for your other thoughts. might go and ask on Tanya's group.
     
  7. Misi

    Misi PetForums VIP

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    Well, my Misi has never had elevated phosphorus levels, even though her kidney disease is now quite advanced. She's been on raw since she was diagnosed in 2008. I mentioned a binder to the vet and she said I could try it. I have a supplement that acts partly as a binder that I add to Misi's wet food if I'm syringe-feeding her, other than that, I don't do anything. To be honest I don't know her current values because the performance she makes while having bloods taken has to be seen to be believed. It normally takes 3 people to hold her. We figure the stress at this stage just isn't worth it, so I keep her well-fed, well watered and as stress-free as possible. If your cat doesn't kick-off like that, it would be worth having a test for phosphorus levels (if there was any way that you could) before adding anything, because any drug has to be metabolised, usually through the kidneys, thus putting a strain on them, so if you don't really need it, perhaps it's best to give it a miss until you do.
     
  8. hobbs2004

    hobbs2004 PetForums VIP

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    I am glad you saw this Misi; was just going to send the OP a vm to get them to talk to you.
     
  9. Misi

    Misi PetForums VIP

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    Bless ya :D
     
  10. chillminx

    chillminx PetForums VIP

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    Your Misi is doing very well as she was diagnosed with CRF in 2008. My vet has always reckoned an 18 month to 2 year maximum survival rate after a CRF diagnosis, and so far this has been borne out by my experience with several of my cats over the years.

    I wonder whether Misi's extended survival rate has anything to do with her raw food diet, or is just a coincidence...maybe she just has good genes:)
     
  11. Misi

    Misi PetForums VIP

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    Well, I'd say good genes, she is MY girl, after all :D

    I don't know, I think she's been lucky. She was only borderline when she was diagnosed and then slipped back to within "norms" after she started her raw diet. She had a slightly elevated BUN, but that's normal for raw-fed kitties. She was fine up until about a year ago when a stomatitis flare-up really knocked her for six, well the meds she was given to treat it are actually what nearly finished her off, and her 2 crises have been after drugs to treat her mouth. I'd say we're probably in the latter stages now, and the fluids keep her going, plus the syringe-feeding when she won't eat. I have a holistic vet and she's not much for over-loading her with too many medicines. I know some cats are on phos binders, anti-acid drugs, anti-nausea drugs, appetite stimulators, anaemia drugs... Misi is on Fortekor and a couple of homeopathic drugs, one that both helps her mouth and addresses stomach acid. I've found that the stomach acid can be kept largely in-check by regular feeding and her eating last thing at night. She has her ups and downs but is incredibly strong in body and spirit :)
     
  12. Ianthi

    Ianthi PetForums VIP

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    I assume you had some initial bloodwork though to diagnose CRF in the first place and to act as a baseline test? I wonder if the vets mentioned the binder then because the phosphorous level was elevated at his point?

    Generally the recommendation is to start treatment ( phosphorous binder ) when the level reaches 1.9 mmol or thereabouts for early stage CRF, with a view to decreasing levels further and maintaining them. Not aware of any difference where raw feeding is concerned though would have thought it applied to all CRF cats in this range.
     
  13. Ianthi

    Ianthi PetForums VIP

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    I'm really glad to hear Misi is doing well these days! Very interesting about her never having elevated P levels.

    While I totally agree with limiting drugs that are cleared by the kidneys ( even with my own oldies I'm always cautious about medications for this reason ) as far as I'm aware though with P binders they bind with phosphorous in the gut before it's absorped in the small intestine, thus bypassing the kidneys totally where at a later stage both are excreted normally.
     
  14. Misi

    Misi PetForums VIP

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    Yes, I would have thought that was the case, too, but it was just something the vet mentioned. She's ultra-cautious...
     
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