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Discussion in 'Dog Health and Nutrition' started by garryd, Jan 11, 2008.
Chudleys Pet Store: Welcome
these sell the aukarty cheap if you dont hace access to costco
well so far never had any problem - it has always been spot on with me
Ordered on Tuesday, arrived Thursday cant complain
On the hyper thing I dont think you need worry too much with Orijen - its not so much the level of protein as the additives/preservatives/sugary stuff (all the junk food) that makes dogs hyper so with Orijen you should be safe
You need to adapt the food according to your dog; does he finish the bowl quickly, does he seem hungry during the day, does he look over weight or under weight...
When i fed my greyhound complete feed i was feeding almost 1/2 what the packet says. All complete feeds seem to recommend too much hence why so many folk have overweight dogs. As you've already mentioned someone fed there's 1/4 less other 1/3 less. Like humans dogs will have different metabolisms.
I now have two Saluki crosses [both 18 kg]; the 2 yrs has a 1/3 more than the 4 yrs old as she is a more energetic dog... and just needs a bit more. I weigh them every couple of months and weigh their food each meal [although i'm now feeding a wet diet]. I do think weighing a dogs food is important - a mere oz of extra meat will result in the 4 yr putting on weight although the 2 yr can have a bit more and not appear to put weight on.
Just for your interest quantities for a wet diet are easier to calculate. The guide for decades has been; for meat feed 2 % of body weight + 1/2 of biscuit/mixer.
18 kgs = 40 lbs. so feed 0.8 lbs meat per day = 13 oz.
I give 6 oz meat + 3 oz mixer per meal for the 4 yr. 8oz meat + 4 oz mixer to the 2 yr as she needs a bit extra. This guide i've found is spot on. Even tinned food recommends far too much.
Hope this helps.
Hi, I'm new to the Forum and have enjoyed reading everything here. I would really like some advice. I have been feeding my 2 year old collie on Genesis for a year now - this is what she was having when we got her. She really doesn't like it that much but has been thriving on it. She is really healthy and looks great. Having read all the comments on dry food, I have learned a lot, such as high protein foods make for hyper active dogs (which I have) and also have read a lot of comments about itching (which she has). I wonder if this diet could be responsible (protein is 26%). Has anyone else either used or heard of Genesis, and do you think I should change? Would appreciate any advice. Thanks.
Genesis isn't one i had heard of but i looked on their website. It seems to me a quality dry complete if the price is anything to go by. For a maintenance diet protein level is a little high... but as a comparison ProPlan [who claim to have spent £Ms on research] are closer to 30% protein.
There are now so many makes available and it is bewildering to know what to feed - i'd say stick to one of the well known ones. Visit the factory and hear what they say. I live about 7 miles from Spillers so i would be feeding that - but i'm not feeding dry complete at present.
Price isn't necessarily a good guide. Spillers have their own factory which reduces their costs. Some makes use a process factory and thus pass on a higher cost.
If you change do a lot of research beforehand as it's unwise to keep changing their food. I don't know much about Collies and nil about their digestion and metabolism. I would think due to their working origin that they are a low rate of metabolism and thus a lower protein would be more appropriate. My Saluki-Collie seems to have a faster rate of metabolism that expected and so i feed her more.
i just answered on another post regarding wet and dry food, i thought appropriate to post here my experience hoping it will help:
quoting: "HI all,
sorry to intrude.
I'm new and still not fully aware of the etiquette of forum...however the debate wet or dry has taken up a lot of my time in the past and i wanted to share my opinion/experience:
Wet food is 70% - or more - water...to feed a large dog (30+ kilograms) on that you'll need around or more than 1 kg of food per day to supply your dog's needs. this is 1) very expensive, 2) put under stress the tummy and 3) -by consequence- produces excessive amount of smelly poo (with the problem that can cause to the dog to pass it several times a day and whoever picks it up).
In my opinion the best way to feed our companions is to vary their diet as much as possible and i use dry food and cook for them (once a week and then freeze the lot). their bowls is usually 1/2 of dry food, and 1/2 of mix of meat, vegetables and rice (I do not use onion obviously) sometimes i add stale bread and some gravy. (fresh and clean water should always be available either with dry or wet food).
I suppose that for small dogs wet food can be fine (but still, in proportion, the problem will be the same); for puppies, especially of large breeds, i am planning of applying the same principles that's working so well with the mother and "aunty", except puppy food goes in the blender with added puppy formula milk and water .
In choosing their feed, i always look for small and independent companies that have some sort of arrangement with vet colleges for trying their products on a long-ish term basis. there is only a little number of these companies left in the UK, however they are still out there! the problem with these companies is that they have a network of suppliers very underdeveloped and more often than not i have to buy over the internet.
At the moment and for quite some time, i am buying Sneyd's Wonderdog, the company is based in Doncaster and has a range of very high quality food, without additives. the only draw back is that the BestBefore date is not as long as the high-street brands (that's because Sneyd;s does not contain any additives) so you cannot buy in bulk. however the price is extremely competitive (about £10-£12 pound for 15kg for adult dogs) and a bit more expensive for puppies and juniors.
By the Way, i am in no way connected with this company, or any other company, for that matter...i just like their products.
I hope this contribution helps in the choice!" end quoting.
a] Most animals are about 80% water including humans and feed on similar. Dry complete is not cheaper depending where you source food from. Your comment 2) is incorrect - on natural food the stomach will not be put under stress, quite the reverse - have you read about raw meaty bone diets or barf. Regarding poo i think you'd find the dog's outgoings would be halved on a wet diet as there isn't so much waste. The higher quality Dry complete seems to produce less indicating that more is used by the body.
b] One should not vary a dog's diet too much. One should not mix Dry complete with Wet as the dry complete is designed to swell and be broken down over a much longer period than a Wet diet. Known cases of intestinal disorders have increased over the last couple of decades. Vets recommend Dry complete a lot of the time because it's easier for the owner... but will the dog live longer? Vet's even now say mix both but they are surgeons and not nutritionists in all fairness.
c] Sneyd do produce what would appear to be quality food at a budget price. Protein 24% is still on the high side for a maintenance diet.
on your point A) -> food containing that huge amount of water (that you pay for) put definetly under strain the tummy of the dogs (especially a large breed that needs over a kg of wet to supply the body of the necessary nutrients)...a kg of food means at least 70-80% needs to be passed out *and this will cause inflammations given the quantity...
sub a) i never commented against the natural food (if you;d read below you see that i give my dogs natural food (1/2 of their meal is meat and vegetables) to be precise meat is only lightly cocked while vegetables are overcooked to increase the % that can be more easily digested. there will be a loss of vitamins, and that is when the dry food comes into the equation.
using high quality dry food, means that dog's feed mustn't be in huge amount to achieve nutrient requirements. and this brings me to your point B), given that the quantity if high quality dry food is limited , although the nutritional values are high, the expansion (that happens in the bowl for 3/4 and continue for the rest of the 1/4 in the tummy), won't cause any enlargement, hence is gentle on the stomach (i have actually measured these proportion because as a happy owner of two very large dogs - 60kg one and 30kg the other, i have to pay particular attention to avoid any form of upset). regarding vets' suggestions i would follow only in case of recovery (post surgery feeding for spaying and after c-section), the vet with specialisation in nutrition should be consulted in this case - hopefully one that hasn;t got any dog food corporation sponsoring the practice...(their suggestions depend upon the general health of the dogs, the size and the characteristics rather than general considerations of how easy is to feed them...and their bill is not sky high - i think i paid 24 pounds per dogs for the consultation including a check up-. also varying the dogs diet in the short term will cause some discomfort due to habituation of the stomach to old monotonous diet, but as long as you progress gradually, the capability of the digestive system will improve and after a couple of moths of gentle and gradual re-habituation the dog's stomach will be able to process efficiently the food intake.
your sub c), as i said, i'm looking for small independent British companies that have links with veterinary colleges (rather than large multinational food corporations) in order to source feed as good as possible backed by studies that are verified by public organisation like veterinary colleges and universities' labs. having said that, if you know of any of the such, i would like very much to try them out and eventually report my experience with them.
i mentioned sneyd's because i'm using it at the moment and i feel confident in mixing it with the food i prepare... but i am open to try new companies' products as long as they comply with the points i mentioned above...
other than that, i would really recommend to talk to a vet with specialisation in nutrition (they usually "lurk" in universities departments and you;d need to carry out a little research before you can find one, they are usually not sponsored by big companies, as their wages are paid through research grants and public funding of research...and i feel i can trust their suggestions) moreover they are very professional (although sometimes their language can be a bit technical as they are not too use in dealing with the public like high street vets - they mostly deal with specialised breeders, farmers, other vets and technical personnell...but then we need to do our homework as well...to top it up, their bills usually are honest and not as ridiculous as i had to bare in more than one occasion).
hope this explains my standing on the subject and has somehow contributed to the discussion.
We are moving on to Skinners field and trail crunchy from 8months-18months for our two now looks very good, sadly cant afford to feed two on Arden Grange anymore due to oh losing a week worths of wages
Looks very good tho and reviews have been great can get two 15kg bags for £33 delivered
The point i was making is that animals feed on feed that naturally contains 70+% water. Do you have dried beef for Sunday lunch? As it contains more nutritional value you don't feed more and more is digested than a grain based complete feed.
Have you put some kibble in a bowl of water and soaked it overnight - and looked at what its swelled to.
You feed your dog what you like. I think you'd see a big difference in their vitality on natural food.